Does anyone go from TDRL to Active?

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brohammer

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Is it possible at all with a diagnosis of psychosis? Right after I received my orders out, docs seem to think I’ve gotten much better, but it just seems like there actively working to lower my ratings. I was never ill to begin with (after a time of a week) they gave me symptoms I don’t have, despite me reporting none.

I want a fit for duty more than anything. Are they being genuine? PEBLO, IPEB told me/read in findings have low/no chance getting back in, all research I’ve done comes with the same. I had another meeting with the docs yesterday and it was the same, they are pushing to get me off meds, fast. Do I have a chance of getting back in after re-evaluation?

They said they are trying to help, but I don’t know anymore. My exp has been so negative I can’t trust military doctors. If I even had a chance of going in another branch or reserve, I would be thrilled. Does this ever happen with a mental health disorder?
 
@brohammer,
I will try to answer your questions. However, understand that this all just "educated guesses." You could possibly "buck the odds" and get a different outcome than I suspect.

Also, understand that your efforts to get a return to duty finding works against a good alternative finding, i.e., a permanent retirement finding. I strongly caution you to consider the range of outcomes and weigh what you want vice what is likely and the impact of all determinations on your own circumstances.

Is it possible at all with a diagnosis of psychosis?
Yes, technically, any outcome is possible. (Fit and return to duty, retirement with the same rating, or retirement with an increased rating.)
That said, my experience says that a return to duty and a fit finding is extremely unlikely. Consider this closely. My guess is that you will never serve in the military again and you may undercut your case for a retirement finding by pursuing this. I know from reading your post that this is not likely what you want to hear. But, in my opinion, it is the actual situation you face.
I want a fit for duty more than anything. Are they being genuine? PEBLO, IPEB told me/read in findings have low/no chance getting back in, all research I’ve done comes with the same. I had another meeting with the docs yesterday and it was the same, they are pushing to get me off meds, fast. Do I have a chance of getting back in after re-evaluation?
Well, getting off of meds would be a first good step for supporting a return to duty finding. However, likely, in order to prevail on convincing the military that you are fit, you would have to not only get off meds, but, also not be significantly symptomatic after getting off of meds. This may take some time to demonstrate. I don't know where you are in the process and whether you could pull off showing this with a good track record to convince the board.

My worry for your case and situation is that you may be fighting for your "dream" of returning to duty, but, the facts may not align to make this a reality.

They said they are trying to help, but I don’t know anymore. My exp has been so negative I can’t trust military doctors. If I even had a chance of going in another branch or reserve, I would be thrilled. Does this ever happen with a mental health disorder?

Yes, it does happen. However, it is unlikely. I would be very reticent about your efforts. Well, maybe if you are willing to trade a potential permanent military retirement for the very unlikely chance to get a return to duty and fit finding.

I read your post and your situation and feel very worried for your outcome. I think you may not be weighing the costs and benefits of your efforts and may be hurting your best interests.

I hope all goes well for you. Best of luck!
 
Thanks for the reply, it is what my thoughts have been as well, through my research. I honestly don’t know if the docs have my best interest at heart or looking to lower ratings. I can’t imagine really how lowering my ratings would benefit them, other then being shills for the military. They did start me on a generic medication immediately after I recieved orders, so it makes think they are on that cost mindset.

I am about to switch PCMs with seperating, going to VA docs, so it may slow down the medication lowering. Only other benefit I can forsee is that I may want to go into to construction and need a DOT medical, which I would have to be off meds for, and for my pilot’s rating.

The most frustrating thing is I have been asymptotic for 6.5 months, I have not reported a single symptom. My NARSUM was based off of 1 week of displayed REAL symptoms during an extreme sleep deprivation (4 days w/o) while down range.

While I was inpatient everything they wrote seemed like fluff and just nonsense diagnosis criteria(like me being in a hospital with 18 yo kids at 35 and not actively socialising with them made me “anti-social”. I brought up concerns about side effects about my medication (gave me constipation) and they said I was exhibiting delusions.

They then took the rather shooty evidence from my hospital inpatient, combined it with my week of displayed symptoms and made it sound like I had a chronic disorder. I felt fine after I got good sleep and nutrition and told docs that every single visit, but it did not matter. So now I’m stuck with having to deal with being booted out fir what I feel was a complete misdiagnosis and a mere agenda of the military to make me appear far worse than I actually was.

I will likely just take things slow and not push for a return to duty. I have a feeling I will go below 30% regardless, because I’m honest and been that way the whole way through. Given how I seen the agenda workings of the DoD, they will look to cut me off as soon as possible after ruining my career or any possibility of doing the same job I did in the military on the outside.

Thanks for your input, it’s given me realistic reinforcement to what I believe is the case myself.
 
I applied for voc rehab and it came on the day I was suppose to go, do they not call ppl? Damn I fell like I’ll lose all benefits within 6 months.
 
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I know exactly how you feel. I never wanted to leave in the first place and am on TDRL as well for mental health issues. I made a similar post as you back in 2014 stating my desperation of wanting to stay and be found fit for duty at all costs. My recommendation if this is truly what you want to do and are not worried about risking a permanent retirement with benefits, I would find steady employment if you are not already employed. I'm assuming your pursuing this by your post saying you are trying to get into voc rehab. I've always thought a career as a first responder, maybe a Paramedic or a Firefighter would definitely show you can handle a high stressful situation and would be good evidence if you want to return to the military. I would say police but with their background checks and psychiatric exams, I'm not sure the likelihood of that career field especially when they are going to use mental health as a reason to not have a firearm in your possession. Stressful jobs and if you can do it should help your case. If you can find a civilian equivalent vocation to what your military occupation was, this could increase your chances as it shows you have performed similar duties your were doing as your were boarded out.

I just got back my findings from the Air Force of a Re-Evaluation I had done in January. I was retained back on TDRL at the same percentage despite my Evaluator saying she was recommending placement on the Permanent Disabled Retirement List. Said only one time the military did not go with her ratings and it was the Marines. Said it was a mistake on their part. Well, I am number 2 for her. Just never know how these things will go. I say this not to discourage you. I am rooting for your to do this since this is a very hard outcome to achieve and would love to know someone could do it. Just here to offer my experience and knowing just how passionate you feel about this. I ultimately went with Jason Perry's advice that I would be risking way too much trying to reach for that dream and leave potential benefits the rest of my life on the table. If you are gainfully employed, this might not matter so much to you but in my situation, I need my benefits. I had to go with my gut rather than my heart and it is a tough decision I kick my own tail for to this day. My Air Force Doctor told me it's unlikely I ever return to duty but unlikely that I'd lose my benefits as well.

I'm not sure how much stock can be put into the article because the Army recanted it but they said they were taking people with a history of mental health, self-mutilation on a case by case basis. Like I said, they recanted it once the word got out. You can look at it multiple ways, maybe they do but just did not want it well known or the publicity that comes with it. Or where there is smoke, there's fire. It seems hard to believe but to go out of the way to have an article about it seems like there could be some validity to it. The USA Today wrote about it based on documents obtained. I'd verify with a recruiter before jeopardizing any benefits.

Army lifts ban on waivers for recruits with history of some mental health issues
 
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I think with a diagnosis of psychosis; the odds of a RTD decision are very slim.
 
Military and VA docs certainly do have a bias such as you describe. Like everyone has said, RTD is extremely rare. Once you’ve been identified and put in for meb, the military simply doesn’t want you around anymore.

And I completely agree with Jason, he is 100% correct!!! By downplaying any symptoms you are setting yourself up for reduced benefits for life.


Last issue I didn’t see discussed is why were you having 4 days with zero sleep? Did they ever give you meds or otherwise alleviate the reason behind the lack of sleep? If not addressed/treated that could be a danger to yourself and others. Think about sharing the road with someone who hasn’t slept in 4 days!!! I had some serious sleep issues (6 months of 1-2 hours per night). It took years for doctors to finally prescribe something that works (seroquel). Finally I can get 8 hours a night, but skip a dose and I’ll get zero that night.
 
tony292 is exactly right about the sleep being detrimental to one's health and could result in car accidents. I've had chronic sleep impairment since 2012 and was one of the reasons for being boarded out. Had some car accidents while I was still in and 2 most definitely can accredit to a lack of sleep for sure. It got so bad I no longer drive. Do not want to danger others and myself. My sleep was awful starting back in 2012. I feel like the military dropped the ball on me not getting a sleep evaluation done. 6 years later I am scheduled for one to be performed in a few weeks. 4 days has been my longest period of sleep deprivation. Not one second of rest. This came after my decision to stop driving until I recover enough. When that day comes, I am going to pursue driving school because I am so out of loop now that just driving after inactive period as mine would be detrimental.
 
Military and VA docs certainly do have a bias such as you describe. Like everyone has said, RTD is extremely rare. Once you’ve been identified and put in for meb, the military simply doesn’t want you around anymore.

And I completely agree with Jason, he is 100% correct!!! By downplaying any symptoms you are setting yourself up for reduced benefits for life.


Last issue I didn’t see discussed is why were you having 4 days with zero sleep? Did they ever give you meds or otherwise alleviate the reason behind the lack of sleep? If not addressed/treated that could be a danger to yourself and others. Think about sharing the road with someone who hasn’t slept in 4 days!!! I had some serious sleep issues (6 months of 1-2 hours per night). It took years for doctors to finally prescribe something that works (seroquel). Finally I can get 8 hours a night, but skip a dose and I’ll get zero that night.


That is the problem. I'm not downplaying any symptoms. I don't have any, I have not had any after the one week when I was downrange (symptoms such as delusions/paranoid thoughts). My only option would be to simply lie and say I have them when I don't, but I don't have it in me to do that. They are cutting the diagnosis to be non-chronic and only acute.
The way I see things now is I will be successful in life no matter what, I am not going to let this hold me back. Since on terminal leave I have been referred for 4 jobs and have 2 interviews coming up (state/county gov jobs). I have an associates, bachelors and master's. I will not let this ruin my life and if I lose the benefits so be it. I am not going to play up symptoms that I simply don't have. The only thing I may want to try is getting my clearance unsuspended, but I don't know if it is worth the hassle. The DOCS really seem to be genuine in getting me back on AD, when I was telling them about job interviews, they were saying "You know the military still kind of owns you" -- To me it seems like they really are pushing for it. I asked if anyone they know has ever returned to AD, and they say no one has ever shown an interest.

I want the diagnosis to go acute as well because I am a private pilot and it would bar me from flying if it was a chronic condition. I really just want to put this behind me and forget it ever happened, that I am truly not crazy and it was just a circumstantial unfortunate event. As far as the sleeping ordeal, it only happened because I was excessively worrying about things that I should not have been, I don't want to go through and explain it, but it is not something that normally happens to me. I usually sleep perfectly fine. I 100% think that my delusions and paranoid thoughts were tied to the lack of sleep as well, but it simply doesn't matter to the military.
 
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Yes, it does happen. However, it is unlikely. I would be very reticent about your efforts. Well, maybe if you are willing to trade a potential permanent military retirement for the very unlikely chance to get a return to duty and fit finding.

I read your post and your situation and feel very worried for your outcome. I think you may not be weighing the costs and benefits of your efforts and may be hurting your best interests.

I hope all goes well for you. Best of luck!

I think with a diagnosis of psychosis; the odds of a RTD decision are very slim.

Brohammer- how many years AD do you have? If close to t"retiring" normally, fully, understand your "desire" to finish as well as trying to simply "tell it like is" with your symptoms and not exaggerate.

That being said, I think all here are in fact giving you very good advice... as per my TDRL experience, a"ALL" told me RTD is really not an option. And even if, so would be treated much less than 2nd Class citizen! Furthermore, it is more than possible to go US Guard or Reserve as in the VA System- Gulf Coast VA-VISN-16 is in fact filled with veterans with MH Conditions and constantly deploying. (Not only that but local Law Enforcement as well!) Furthermore, been other places in VA System and it is the same- 100% Disabled vet's for MH Conditions serving in Guard or reserve and deploying. That being said, do you really think that is correct course for you or anyone by and large- diagnosis dependent, of course, as some MH conditions much worse than other's?

But there is the "rub," to the whole MH Issue "shebang" it can take several years to in fact get a "correct" MH diagnosis or if more than one "diagnosis" i.e. "numerous/countless" changed if given in "error!"

The best advice I think you could possibly be given, in addition to all "previous" given is to in fact get a second or third opinion from some "civilian" MH sources that are in fact very "familiar" with the military- but that is exceedingly hard to find!????? You could, if a combat vet, in fact try local "Vet Center" or other such places.... or even ask on this Forum....

Best of luck, Brohammer, and strongly encourage you to listen to the "advice" of Mr. Jason Perry, others..as well as may want to "retain" an attorney to represent you, "sadly," but that is "perhaps" wisest course..... this day and age.... in my humble opinion.....

PS: In " the "military" culutre of my time, we were ALL in fact, at least "Combat Arms," very highly discouraged from "discussing" personal issues/problems or even seeking "medical " treatment for physical issues let alone MH-related issues (MH was kiss of death), so I understand it might be hard and or difficult for you or other's to realize "might" in fact have some issues/problems! Sometimes, it simply has to "occur" to you to become a "believer" in things like PTSD, etc.....
 
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Brohammer- how many years AD do you have? If close to t"retiring" normally, fully, understand your "desire" to finish as well as trying to simply "tell it like is" with your symptoms and not exaggerate.

That being said, I think all here are in fact giving you very good advice... as per my TDRL experience, a"ALL" told me RTD is really not an option. And even if, so would be treated much less than 2nd Class citizen! Furthermore, it is more than possible to go US Guard or Reserve as in the VA System- Gulf Coast VA-VISN-16 is in fact filled with veterans with MH Conditions and constantly deploying. (Not only that but local Law Enforcement as well!) Furthermore, been other places in VA System and it is the same- 100% Disabled vet's for MH Conditions serving in Guard or reserve and deploying. That being said, do you really think that is correct course for you or anyone by and large- diagnosis dependent, of course, as some MH conditions much worse than other's?

But there is the "rub," to the whole MH Issue "shebang" it can take several years to in fact get a "correct" MH diagnosis or if more than one "diagnosis" i.e. "numerous/countless" changed if given in "error!"

The best advice I think you could possibly be given, in addition to all "previous" given is to in fact get a second or third opinion from some "civilian" MH sources that are in fact very "familiar" with the military- but that is exceedingly hard to find!????? You could, if a combat vet, in fact try local "Vet Center" or other such places.... or even ask on this Forum....

Best of luck, Brohammer, and strongly encourage you to listen to the "advice" of Mr. Jason Perry, others..as well as may want to "retain" an attorney to represent you, "sadly," but that is "perhaps" wisest course..... this day and age.... in my humble opinion.....




The only problem with the advice I have been getting is where it is making it as if I have a choice. The doctors recommended I get off medication/stopped prescribing it as I haven’t had any symptoms.

I guess at this point, I’m kind of said and done with the fed gov. I realise I won’t go back to AD? It was a small hope, but they are more than likely trying to cut me off benefits. My career has already been screwed beyond recognition over an incident where I exp delusional thoughts for a period a week. They also took my clearance so I’m withheld from continuing the job I did in the civilian sector. My military career was essentially for nothing...in the career aspect. Well yes, I still get preference for some jobs, but my specific skill set is now for nothing. Now I’m going to lose the benefits as well that I am suppose to receive for essentially tarnishing my record saying I have a MH condition that I don’t have.

It’s time to move on. There is little of nothing I can do without just fabricating symptoms that I don’t have.

I was in 9 years/have 2 weeks left.
 
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I guess at this point, I’m kind of said and done with the fed gov. I realise I won’t go back to AD? It was a small hope, but they are more than likely trying to cut me off benefits. My career has already been screwed beyond recognition over an incident where I exp delusional thoughts for a period a week. They also took my clearance so I’m withheld from continuing the job I did in the civilian sector. My military career was essentially for nothing...in the career aspect. Well yes, I still get preference for some jobs, but my specific skill set is now for nothing. Now I’m going to lose the benefits as well that I am suppose to receive for essentially tarnishing my record saying I have a MH condition that I don’t have.

It’s time to move on. There is little of nothing I can do without just fabricating symptoms that I don’t have.

I would not recommend "fabricating" any symptoms you do not have as in end will only make your situation worse than it is "possibly?" Although, what you are describing in fact "forces" a lot of "veterans" etc... to do, as sadly as you are "figuring" out the "system" is totally stacked against us "ALL!"

That being stated, you will not be the first not last "veteran" etc.. to have your life, and your "famile's" life totally messed up by the "Federal/State?Local" government-authorities....by any means!

I suggest, you for ack of better term "troll" this website to gain a "clearer" perspective on that matter.......

Furthermore, based on last post and I have be "chastised" for this on this post- but would more than encourage to retain "legal-counsel" as soon as possible (ASAP) as sounds as if you actually really need it.... or at least "consult" with an "attorney or two.....ASAP!!!!! (We are a country supposedly governed by the rule of "law," but as you are seeing, is it really "equitable to all???)

Best of luck Brohammer......????????????

PS: Would recommend you check out "Fake Disability: How Our Veterans Abuse the VA System"-Paperback – February 5, 2014 by Doc Man (Author) ( at: Amazon-com: https://www.amazon.com/Fake-Disabil...preST=_SY344_BO1,204,203,200_QL70_&dpSrc=srch ) as this in fact contributes greatly to what is "wrong" with the system and greatly "hinders" its repair or replacement with a better one if any "entity" with "power" enough to do so in US Government, like our "elected officials," but is very "taboo" subject- in and of itself- as well, further compounding the issue ( so all kind of "infinite" 'do-loop').......!!!!!????????
 
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It’s time to move on. There is little of nothing I can do without just fabricating symptoms that I don’t have.

PS: Would recommend you check out "Fake Disability: How Our Veterans Abuse the VA System"-Paperback – February 5, 2014 by Doc Man (Author) ( at: Amazon-com: https://www.amazon.com/Fake-Disabil...preST=_SY344_BO1,204,203,200_QL70_&dpSrc=srch ) as this in fact contributes greatly to what is "wrong" with the system and greatly "hinders" its repair or replacement with a better one if any "entity" with "power" enough to do so in US Government, like our "elected officials," but is very "taboo" subject- in and of itself- as well, further compounding the issue ( so all kind of "infinite" 'do-loop').......!!!!!????????

Brohammer- the system is in fact so bad that even MH Provider's within US DVA system are in fact afraid to "call" out those they firmly "believe" are in fact "faking" or "exaggerating" their issues.... (I know as have heard same from a MH providers in US DVA system since I sadly "joined" eons ago!)

They are trapped by the system "their" profession has created or at least "highly" encouraged! I.e. for example- they give themselves the "escape" clause on diagnosis that "may not be accurate-or to said effect" but if make mistake that involves something beyond "horrid" happening to veteran, or common citizen's, will not in fact recant as no "liability attached" due to said "escape clause" but if on other end- know "faking/ exaggerating" simply afraid to "call-out," so to spaek, as for actual "fear of liability" or other "ramifications"- say if said "individuals or clients/ patiemt's" go out and do something "deliberately" to prove them wrong.....so these MH Professional's are in fact in Catch-22, by their own "system!" Tragic..but very real....
 
Brohammer- the system is in fact so bad that even MH Provider's within US DVA system are in fact afraid to "call" out those they firmly "believe" are in fact "faking" or "exaggerating" their issues.... (I know as have heard same from a MH providers in US DVA system since I sadly "joined" eons ago!)

They are trapped by the system "their" profession has created or at least "highly" encouraged! I.e. for example- they give themselves the "escape" clause on diagnosis that "may not be accurate-or to said effect" but if make mistake that involves something beyond "horrid" happening to veteran, or common citizen's, will not in fact recant as no "liability attached" due to said "escape clause" but if on other end- know "faking/ exaggerating" simply afraid to "call-out," so to spaek, as for actual "fear of liability" or other "ramifications"- say if said "individuals or clients/ patiemt's" go out and do something "deliberately" to prove them wrong.....so these MH Professional's are in fact in Catch-22, by their own "system!" Tragic..but very real....



Yes I certainly feel trapped. I know I’m fine, I know the doctors know I’m fine, I’ve been telling them that from the get go (the diagnosis came inpatient elsewhere), yet they didn’t start to change the course of treatment until I received my orders out, like instantly and also change my medication to generic (save money). The worse part is they suspended my clearance, now getting any fed job is going to be a hassle, and I could have gotten jobs for private contractors making 100k a year plus easily, I know a lot of people in the contracting world. So I lost my military career and any subsequent civilian career with the skill set I had.

I don’t know what a lawyer would do, in regards to my medical situation/disability pay etc. I don’t know what I’d fight exactly, it’s not a situation where I feel I have symptoms and they are forcing me out of treatment, so I’m not exactly sure what I would contend with? The only thing I’m thinking about getting a lawyer for is unsuspending my clearance and the doctors are on board with providing evidence of my improvement and also that my diagnosis never elevated to a “chronic” state, that it was in fact temporary.

I may not ever be able to get back in the military, but I still believe there is a chance to appeal my clearance suspension, as that goes quite far beyond my commanders initial recommendation to suspend it while in treatement.

Also, as I have mentioned, I am a private pilot and having a chronic mental condition bars me from flying, I won’t lose my license as having an acute diagnosis. It’s a passion of mine and I don’t want to have to give it up.

In the end, I will likely (more than likely) be medically separated and receive a severance after my re-eval as it was an involuntary separation that was based on a good track record with the military. In my mind that is fair. I don’t feel like I need any medical treatment, I haven’t this whole time. Why should I get free medical care, when there are others out there suffering from war injuries, bad PTSD, TBI etc. It does suck that it ruined my career, but it still did happen. Even a temporary mental break would cause a seperation from the military. I’ve gone through my bouts of anger of feeling screwed over (and it still rekindles at times) but I keep reminded myself that things could be far worse and I’m happy that I really don’t have the condition that I was med boarded for as it would keep me from living a normal life.

I can go on to a job at another level of government, that has really good health benefits, good retirement and have a rewarding career. I am a bit fearful of not getting hired on, but I have already been getting referrals and contacts for interviews in fields that I’m interested in that have some similiaritues to what I did in the military. I was very very negative about my whole ordeal, but am now looking at things in a different light and realise it can turn out all positively. Heck, I can stay in the area of my choosing, but a house and so on. There are many pros to not staying in the military and if I worked private contracting jobs, I would more than likely have to move to the DC area, which I would not be fond of.
 
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