Saunders v United States

Saunders v United States 2018-04-12

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Jason Perry submitted a new resource:

Saunders v United States - Federal Court of Appeals case stating pain is a basis for VA compensation

This case is very important. First, as far as its impact, it is a decision of a three judge case before the US Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit. This is a court above the US Court of Appeals for Veterans Claims (and one level of judicial review below the US Supreme Court). This case may be appealed to the Supreme Court, but, for now, this case is binding law.

As far as substance, it is HUGE. The reason for this is two-fold. First, it impacts a huge number of cases. Second, it states...
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Jason Perry

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Former MiTT Team Leader

PEB Forum Veteran
Registered Member
#2
Sir, how does this impact things like being diagnosed fibriomalgyia, pain for existing service conditions such as arthritis, etc..... and or conditions not service connected?????

Or is perhaps too early to tell.....?????
 

Jason Perry

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#5
I have been following this case. Do you predict an appeal by the the VA?
If you just want my gut instinct, I don't think an appeal is likely.

The next level of appeal is to the US Supreme Court. Given the reasons for the decision and the Trump Administrations position on being seen as supportive of veterans, I don't know that an appeal makes sense as a likely step. Also, the recent firing of the VA Secretary (Shulkin) makes me think that the time for appeal might pass because of internal VA politics. All of this is pure guess-work and I could be dead wrong.

We will have to see what shakes out. Until an appeal is successfully made, this case is binding and precedential law.
 

chaplaincharlie

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#6
If you just want my gut instinct, I don't think an appeal is likely.

The next level of appeal is to the US Supreme Court. Given the reasons for the decision and the Trump Administrations position on being seen as supportive of veterans, I don't know that an appeal makes sense as a likely step. Also, the recent firing of the VA Secretary (Shulkin) makes me think that the time for appeal might pass because of internal VA politics. All of this is pure guess-work and I could be dead wrong.

We will have to see what shakes out. Until an appeal is successfully made, this case is binding and precedential law.
Thank you. I hope your correct. It will not affect me, but may help many others Vets.
 

texas85

Registered Member
#7
So... if I am reading this right. I don't need an official diagnosis, but if I have pain in my left knee then it should be at least considered?
 

FloridaInjuredInCombat

PEB Forum Veteran
Registered Member
#10
There is current research on Objectively measuring pain through EEG testing. MIT published their research on it in 2011 and a company called PainQx is selling a product for it. I could see the VA someday using a "machine" to test Veterans pain for rating and compensation, but knowing the VA they'll set the controls to make excruciating pain barely register on the report.
 

chaplaincharlie

PEB Forum Veteran
Registered Member
#11
The problem with EEG in general is that probe placement is an critical to good results. While most of us share the same basic anatomy, there are lots of minor and infrequently some major (situs inversus) variations. So the machine is only as good as the operator.
 

Jason Perry

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#13
I haven't gotten a chance to really weigh in and respond to some of the responses to this thread. However, I think some folks are missing the point of this case. It is not that pain (unto itself) is a basis for rating (i.e., there is no independent "pain" criteria as a basis for rating, but, there are many joint conditions or other bases for rating conditions based on pain).

The point is not in quantifying pain. It is that pain is a "disability" that must be rated as appropriate. This is a VERY short comment on the implications of this case. It is just meant to raise the point that I think many of the comments in this thread are missing the impact and result of this case.

When I have time, I will post more.
 

Former MiTT Team Leader

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#16
Guess it's like "trying to find "a box of grid squares?" I suppose, hopefully Mr. Perry will comment more at a later date....

Or the VA could just go "Old School" and have folks place extremities in a tub 652-ice cubes and time how long can tolerate it with a "mechanical or digital" stopwatch......

Hopefully Mr. Perry will shed more light or "illumination" when he has a chance.... as I am sure will be "highly" interesting, as perhaps there is both a "qualitative and quantitative" aspect to this whole thing that cannot "simply" be placed neatly inside a bozx and then have a nice-neat "bow-tie" place flat on top....i.e. the answer is probably not a simple "4".... I am sure, but my "fuzzy" math could be wrong......????

Will have to wait and see......

PS: Please forgive my Masonic attempt at humor but reminds me of entrance to Biloxi, MS VA Facility- HQ Gulf Coast VA- part of VISN-16, where on one road from beach, have Masonic Log, Vet Center and VFW all located right outside the VA Facility "main" gate....along with numerous other things....

See Amazon.com: https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_...efix=masonic+books,aps,198&crid=28KVDICSDS3NU
 
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Former MiTT Team Leader

PEB Forum Veteran
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#17
PS: Please forgive my Masonic attempt at humor but reminds me of entrance to Biloxi, MS VA Facility- HQ Gulf Coast VA- part of VISN-16, where on one road from beach, have Masonic Log, Vet Center and VFW all located right outside the VA Facility "main" gate....along with numerous other things....

See Amazon.com: https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_...efix=masonic+books,aps,198&crid=28KVDICSDS3NU
To further explain above: also on same road in addition a "mini" 'Fire Station' there is a BBQ Joint that used to be called "Hawg Rock" with a "pig" on a motorcycle as its "symbol" which believe is still there! This is odd/ "striking" given the Masonic Lodge in Fairhope, AL, "Greeno Lodge Number F & AM," about 90-minutes away on 1-10- (traffic dependent) has members of a "motorcycle" gang or "club" see: http://www.greeno598.org/apps/photos/photo?photoid=186560056 and (+,x) http://www.greeno598.org/

So hope one can understand, kind of like "tmost-combat" vets notice everything, which is both a "blessing and a "curse"...... which this whole Saunders vs. United States could simple turn out to be..... will have to see???????

Patiently, awaiting Mr. Perry's reply on this issue, when he has time.....

Thanks
 

Former MiTT Team Leader

PEB Forum Veteran
Registered Member
#18
So hope one can understand, kind of like "tmost-combat" vets notice everything, which is both a "blessing and a "curse"...... which this whole Saunders vs. United States could simple turn out to be..... will have to see???????

Patiently, awaiting Mr. Perry's reply on this issue, when he has time.....

To the end above thought "SHARE" a resource that might add/shed some light on what some Vietnam Veteran's went throught during years 1969-1970: http://www.recordsofwar.com/vietnam/army/ or as tilted"The US Army in Vietnam"
-"The Bud Harton Collection at the Texas Tech Virtual Vietnam Archive"

It has "first hand accounts" on utilization "flak-jacket's" and "ceramic" helicopter Armour plates for additional protection- sound "familiar" the "utilization" of "advisors" which oddly had same issues as "advisor's" in Iraq/Afghanistan, etc.... and finally 1969's Operation "Apache Snow" (at https://vva.vietnam.ttu.edu/repositories/2/digital_objects/332187 & attached below)which across the board is highly "Illuminating!" from numerous perspectives....

What is striking is the how detailed and in depth all of these reports and accounts go, and that they were in fact kept by on-duty historians in beyond "incredible"...

Alos, IAW this website- at https://vva.vietnam.ttu.edu/repositories/2/digital_objects/332176 -
"ARMY 1969 SPEC OPS GRP CMD HISTORY" item Number 168300010541 - started "digitizing" records....I guess with "punch cards" so might there still not be "digital" copies of US Vietnam Veterans out ther somewhere, even though "paper" copies burned????(think good question VFW, American Legion, etc.. should perhaps look into?????)
[See Attached Below]

Vietnam VET's out there may be able to utilize these document's as proof of a "claim" with the US DVA, etc......espically if have lost records in like the St. Louis fire of the 1970's????


Well hope this may assist some folks out there.....????????

PS: Know Veteran that was in-around some of these "predecessor" unit's (like 17th IN, etc...) and perhaps around some of these folks mentioned in these reports... they will find interesting as well their US DVA Provider's ......?????
 

Attachments

Former MiTT Team Leader

PEB Forum Veteran
Registered Member
#19
All- these files also contain, where chemicals were sprayed- such as defoliant, CS Gas, etc... and how much- that in fact may be helpful Vietnam veterans.....??????

Basically, they are a "treasure" trove of information, if one is simply wiling to look, and could very potentially "Swing" a US DVA rating decision.....??????

Hope, this assist's someone at least??????
NOTE: Above from thread: http://pebforum.com/threads/resourc...s-tech-virtual-vietnam-archive-perhaps.44432/ -'Resource Vietnam Vet's -"The US Army in Vietnam" -"The Bud Harton Collection at the Texas Tech Virtual Vietnam Archive"-Perhaps????'
 

Former MiTT Team Leader

PEB Forum Veteran
Registered Member
#20
All- thought post here anyone still following on Vietnam Unit History database from Post/Thread:
"Resource Vietnam Vet's -"The US Army in Vietnam" -"The Bud Harton Collection at the Texas Tech Virtual Vietnam Archive"-Perhaps????" at http://www.pebforum.com/threads/res...s-tech-virtual-vietnam-archive-perhaps.44432/


Former MiTT Team Leader said:

All- these files also contain, where chemicals were sprayed- such as defoliant, CS Gas, etc... and how much- that in fact may be helpful Vietnam veterans.....??????

Basically, they are a "treasure" trove of information, if one is simply wiling to look, and could very potentially "Swing" a US DVA rating decision.....??????

Hope, this assist's someone at least??????


All- sent selected files to folks in the Gulf Coast VA System/VISN-16 in particular the Gulf Coast VA OEF/OIF Representative (at website: https://www.biloxi.va.gov/services/returning/index.asp ), in hopes they would forward to "Higher HQ" within the US DVA System- hopefully to National US DVA Level!

Being stationed abroad quite a lot, sadly on one of my tours, had a LT walk into a "old" leftover minefield, and was injured! Resultant, we were directed to, as best we could, put together an "overlay" map of were all these "minefields" were "possibly" placed and perhaps not "deactivated"!

I bring this up, as the US DVA or US Government could in fact hire "historians' to go back through these unit histories and generate a "user" friendly data base of were things like "defoliant" and CS Gas etc.. were in fact utilized to assist Vietnam and other pre-Vietnam Veterans of other conflicts....

One of the many possible reason's the US DVA, etc... would not want to do this is "perhaps" potential liability to other "governments" such as Vietnam, etc... but is that simply not the cost of going to war and doing anything short of "total victory!" For example, was in another Country, and all the taxi cabs were Mercedes Benz! I asked why, and the answer was simple- it was part of another countries "war" debt for "atrocities" etc... committed in an "unjust" war!!!!!

Also, the US Military, used- at one point in time have Unit Historians, etc... that did this kind of work! I sent in a Commander's Situation Report almost nightly- encapsulating- all we had done that day, like many of these Vietnam reports! However, they were all electronic, and are most likely "lost" forever in the "ether!"

Well just some things to think about, and hope assist's some veterans out there, whom if willing do "some-homework" with this and other data-bases like it, may get more "favorable" results on their claims.......

PS: I am not saying Vietnam was unjust nor any other US Conflict, however for those Interested might want check out "Just and Unjust Wars: A Moral Argument With Historical Illustrations (Basic Books Classics) 3rd Edition by Michael Walzer (Author)" (at Amazon.com: https://www.amazon.com/Just-Unjust-...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=G5F4317CSY67QA3CF03B ) which was "assigned" reading at US Military Academy once upon a time....

I myself simply concur with one of former Directors US DVA who stated "its all just Disney La...d!" or too some such affect: see YouTube"Mickey Mouse Steamboat Willie 1928" courtesy YouTube Video at
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iep9EJ9H1aU





Which oddly came out mid way through"Yangtze Patrol" from "1854-1949" IAW Wikipedia at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yangtze_Patrol
 
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