Admin Sep Advice/Help

dellagratti

PEB Forum Regular Member
Registered Member
Heres the story: Im a Marine with 11 years in, Ive had several injuries and 3 Limited Duty(3 different reasons) status'. I hurt my back years ago and was told to work through the pain so I did what every motivator would do which is suck it up. In recent years it has worsened and so I sought treatment and the Gen Practitioner annotated "Lumbago" on my diagnosis then referred me to Sports Medicine where I received phys therapy, chiropractic, pain management and finally Neuro-surgery. There they stated I had "sponylosis" with disc degeneration in L3,L4 S1. The sports med Dr said that I could go on PRB because my condition is non surgical and no surgery would repair it so he recommended AdSep. Now I have a letter from unit Medical Officer and he has told my command that my condition is "normal" and is something "everyone" has (referring to the original Lumbago diagnosis). So now Ill have to refuse to train get a 6105 and not improve and then I will be admin Sepped out. Not really sure what to do here or anything. The VFW, DAV both say they cant help me and no one I've asked has any ideas. Do any of you? I thank you in advance.
 
You need to go to a MEB/PEB if this condition is interferring with your duty performance. See DoDI 1332.38 as a start. See the conditions in enclosure 4 that require a meb/peb.

Mike
 
Thank on top of that now! I just feel stressed ouuuuttttttttttttttttttttt................
 
UPDATE: I read into the Enclosure 4 under spine for spondylosis. I have that in L4, L5 and S1 with minor bulging at L4. Today the Phys therapy Dr says that a PEB would be denied by the Dr at IDES who has to sign for authorization because my condition is non surgical. The unit medical states "thers nothing wrong with him, we tell him all the time, if there was he would have had surgery. He just cant handle the pain and should be Ad Sep." this was what was told to 1st Sgt. Is there any truth to this? Should I pursue an PEB or accept AdSep?

EDIT: They say for the AdSep id get an order to perform a Fitness test and I am supposed to decline to do it because of my back. Then she would give me a 6105 "requiring me to improve my condition" but when I cant she will start the Ad Sep paper work. 1st Sgt states that its not punitive and that I will get a regular honorable discharge, not General under honorable or OTH, but a regular honorable. Im very skeptical of this, but dont know if i should be. PLEASE HELP.
 
First, just because you are not a surgical candidate does not mean you are injured. With spinal surgery, they look at risk vs reward. You are a young guy and cracking open your back can open another can of worms. A lot of doctors will not risk that unless there are nerves being impinged upon. Having surgery is not what determines MEB/PEB. It is the effect of the condition on your ability to perform military duty. Your Battalion Doc, or PT can give input, but it will be up to the MEB (IDES) doctor as to whether he will start a board. It sounds like a good case exists to start one.

Are you on a temp, or perm profile? Go talk to the patient rep at the hospital. Let them know what is going on. Degenerative Disk Disease (DDD) is a real condition and degeneration is the key word. If through physical therapy and medications you do not improve enough to perform duty, they have to board you.
 
If by temp or perm profile you mean light duty then yes (not Limdu). I was on limdu for this condition as well as torn LCL and Novicular accessory each individually. I was thinking about speaking to IDES but wasnt sure they would be any help, since you recommend it then i will. Thank you.
 
I didn't say IDES, you need to head to the hospital and talk to your patient advocate.

For Profile I am asking if you have permanent restrictions, or temporary restrictions. In most cases, perm refers a service member to MEB.
 
I completely misread the advocate portion. Im on temp status so i wouldnt be forced to do a 12 mile hike and fall out because of back and get page 11 so ive exceeded the 90 day limit.
 
This is where you need to dig in and figure it out. From what you are saying, the profile you had has expired? Thus the reason you would have to complete the march. Is the Dr not willing to write a profile for longer? Is he saying that the medical evidence says you are good to go? If so, you are entitled to a second opinion. The patient advocate will help you complete that process.

If he is willing to extend it, the question has to be asked as to what is going to get better in 90 days? Are your disks going to miraculously heal? If no, you can push the fact that you have reached a medical determination point and won't get better. That would drive a MEB if you can't perform your duty.

Go to post #2 and look up the Dodi that Mr Parker quoted. That is the no shit rule. The Marines can not thumb their nose at a DOD instruction. That is their higher authority.
 
From what you are saying, the profile you had has expired? YES
Is the Dr not willing to write a profile for longer? There is a 90 day limit, that is accumalated, with in a calendar year after which the patient is to be back on full duty or to be placed on LIMDU status. However, with me Ive been on LIMDU 3 times and that would require a PEB which brings us back to current situation. Catch 22.
Is he saying that the medical evidence says you are good to go?
Thats what hes saying, basically its in my head and i have nothing wrong because its non-surgical.

While waiting for liberty call i read that whole Order and under Enclosure 4 im covered and im not excluded under Enclosure 5 which appears to call for administrative action. we come back wednesday and thats when the liason at hospital will be back too.
 
You've been on LimDu three times. They are not prevented from convening an MEB because of that. The MEB will allow the board members (the MEB at the local MTF) to make their recommendation. If they decide LimDu could bring you back to full duty than HQMC can approve an extra LimDu period. If they say "full duty," than I would be at medical everyday that I had a problem. If the MEB recommends your case go to the PEB than the IDES process begins.
 
Dellagratti,

When it becomes official that the Marines are going to admin sep you for your back condition, please send me a PM.

Mike
 
The whole idea of the issue being non surgical, thus not eligible for a MEB, is BS. If I were you, I would line up your condition with that of enclosure 4 of DoDI 1332.38 and go see the patient advocate or the IG and show them you are required a MEB and demand one.

Mike
 
I went to the liaison in hospital and was told they couldn't do anything for me. I had a second opinion consult to pain management and the Dr. said there was no need to see me since there was no further treatment for me. So now I'm supposed to attempt a PFT and state that I am unable to complete it due to my condition, then they'll put in for AdSep Condition NonDisability. Supposedly this will be a honorable discharge and I keep my VA benefits, including school, and separation pay.
 
Is your condition listed in enclosure 4 of DoDI 1332.38 a one that requires a MEB? Have you been to the IG?

Mike
 
E2.1.22. Optimum Hospital and Medical Treatment Benefits. The point of hospitalization or
treatment when a member's progress appears to be stabilized; or when, following administration
of essential initial medical treatment, the patient's medical prognosis for being capable of
performing further duty can be determined.

E2.1.25. Physical Disability. Any impairment due to disease or injury, regardless of degree,
that reduces or prevents an individual's actual or presumed ability to engage in gainful
employment or normal activity. The term "physical disability" includes mental disease, but not
such inherent defects as behavioral disorders, adjustment disorders, personality disorders, and
primary mental deficiencies. A medical impairment or physical defect standing alone does not
constitute a physical disability. To constitute a physical disability, the medical impairment or
physical defect must be of such a nature and degree of severity as to interfere with the member’s
ability to adequately perform his or her duties.

E4.1. GENERAL
E4.1.1. This enclosure provides a listing, mainly by body system, of medical conditions and
physical defects which are cause for referral into the Disability Evaluation System (DES).
E4.1.1.1. This listing is not all inclusive.
E4.1.1.2. A service member who has one or more of the listed conditions or physical
defects is not automatically unfit and therefore may not qualify for separation or retirement for
disability.
E4.1.2. Individual Secretaries of the Military Departments may, consistent with this
Instruction, modify these guidelines to fit their particular needs. These modifications may
include conditions or defects, individually or in combination that:
E4.1.2.1. Significantly interfere with the reasonable fulfillment of the purpose of the
individual's employment in the Military Service;
E4.1.2.2. May seriously compromise the health or well-being of the individual if he or
she were to remain in the Military Service. This may involve dependence on certain
medications, appliances, severe dietary restrictions, or frequent special treatments, or a
requirement for frequent clinical monitoring.
E4.1.2.3. May prejudice the best interests of the Government if the individual were to
remain in the Military Service.
E4.1.3. Any condition that appears to significantly interfere with performance of duties
appropriate to a service member's, office, grade, rank or rating will be considered for MEB
evaluation.

E4.2.3. Inflammatory Condition. Any inflammatory condition involving the bones, joints,
or muscles of the extremities, that after accepted therapy, prevents the military member from
performing the preponderance of duties assigned.

E4.2.7.2.2. Spondylolysis and/or Spondylolisthesis requiring fusion with loss of
mobility.
 
Do not just accept that they want to adminsep you. You are injured, whether they want to believe it or not. Fight for an MEB, you deserve it.
 
Few issues with what they are trying to do to you. Have you had 1 period of "Light duty" that has passed 90 days? They can only give you 30 days of "Light Duty" at a time. If you have ANY Break 1 single day between the date that first period of 30 days started of Light duty, then your cycle restarts. Its not 90 days of light duty through out the year that cause a adminsep, if anything it will cause a MEB or LIMITED Duty to be put on you! You need to talk to JAG. Go talk to your VA rep. They cannot simply just AdminSeperate you without treatment. You need to file a C&P Claim with the VA, you can start that process even without a MEB started. If you go talk to the VA they will help you get a MEB started through your doctor. I've got the same issue but I pushed for surgery, after multiple treatments, phyiscal therapy, injections and two back surgerys I am now going through a MEB. I asked for it, half way through my 2nd period of Limited Duty. Just remember if you have a single 24 hour break in your light duty status, the count restarts. Thats how I was able to stay out of Limited Duty for so long.
 
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