AF 526 - ARPC won't count DEP time

GatorNavy1

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ARPC at Buckley won't count the Delayed Enlistment Program time. The R/R date (anniversary year) is reset to begin the day entered active duty. This what the AF 526 looks like today:

DIEUS----------- 30 JUL 1975
27 JUN 1975 29 JUL 1975 0000 0000 0000 0000 001 00001 00001 000000 MV 1
30 JUL 1975 29 JUL 1976 0366 0000 0000 0000 000 00366 00366 010000 MR 1
30 JUL 1976 29 JUL 1977 0365 0000 0000 0000 000 00365 00365 010000 MR 1
30 JUL 1977 29 JUL 1978 0365 0000 0000 0000 000 00365 00365 010000 MR 1
30 JUL 1978 29 JUL 1979 0365 0000 0000 0000 000 00365 00365 010000 MR 1
30 JUL 1979 29 JUL 1980 0366 0000 0000 0000 000 00366 00366 010000 MR 1

They said: "Prior to October 1995, members R/R dates were established as the date they entered a status".

I don't think this is correct. From what I have seen in regulation so far is that prior to 1 October 1995, the R/R date (anniversary year) is set when entering a reserve component. After 1995 the R/R dates were reset after a break in service upon entering an active reserve component or an active component. Please see attached Army 140_185_1987. I believe the AF 526 should look something like this:

DIEUS----27 JUN 1975
27JUN197529JUL197500000000000000000010000100001000000MV1
30JUL197526JUN197603330000000000000000033300333010000MR1
27JUN197626JUN197703650000000000000000036500365010000MR1
27JUN197726JUN197803650000000000000000036500365010000MR1
27JUN197826JUN197903650000000000000000036500365010000MR1
27JUN197926JUN198003660000000000000000036600366010000MR1

Man...this thing is kickin my butt! Thanks in advance!
 

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  • Army 140_185_1987.pdf
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RonG

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Maybe @Guardguy11 , @SFC H , @chaplaincharlie , @oddpedestrian , and/or others can assist. As I mentioned on the other site, my knowledge of the reserve point system is limited.

For regular Army during my time in the service, time in the DEP was creditable for pay purposes (e.g., E6 over 8), but not creditable as active duty for retirement purposes.

Good luck,
Ron
 
Last edited:

GatorNavy1

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Thanks....I will PM them if they don't catch the thread first. For a reserve retirement, if a member goes out on a chap. 61 there is no option to serve until the 20 year NOE shows up and then decide to retire or keep serving. Total Good years and partial good years when placed on the TDRL can be a roll of the dice. I have seen where a member was 14 days short of 20 good years. Of course for CRDP, no tickee no laundry.
 

RonG

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Hello,

Re: "For a reserve retirement, if a member goes out on a chap. 61 there is no option to serve until the 20 year NOE shows up and then decide to retire or keep serving."

In conjunction with a Chapter 61 retirement, I don't think those in a regular status (i.e., AD) have the option to serve to 20 years AD and possibly continue serving either. I have seen many who would have preferred tp remain on active duty, but did not have a choice.

In any case, your concern is understandable.

Regards,
Ron

cc: @tony292
 

SFC H

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Thanks....I will PM them if they don't catch the thread first. For a reserve retirement, if a member goes out on a chap. 61 there is no option to serve until the 20 year NOE shows up and then decide to retire or keep serving. Total Good years and partial good years when placed on the TDRL can be a roll of the dice. I have seen where a member was 14 days short of 20 good years. Of course for CRDP, no tickee no laundry.

If a reservist goes out on a chapter 61, that is their retirement. The disability pay starts when awarded a disability retirement. You can apply for your regular retirement at 60 provided you have 20 good yrs and think it would be more than the disability retirement. Why would the service member continue to 20 yr NOE when awarded a disability retirement, this would negate the whole purpose of the disability retirement. There are only good years and no such thing as partial good yrs.

This may be of help, it pertains more to military membership than federal technicians.

 

RonG

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SFC H,

Regarding, "If a reservist goes out on a chapter 61, that is their retirement. The disability pay starts when awarded a disability retirement. You can apply for your regular retirement at 60 provided you have 20 good yrs and think it would be more than the disability retirement. Why would the service member continue to 20 yr NOE when awarded a disability retirement, this would negate the whole purpose of the disability retirement. There are only good years and no such thing as partial good yrs. "

Correct.

There are those who already qualify for another type retirement, such as regular or RC, and that is important for CRDP purposes.
If the disability percentage is higher than the longevity multiplier the retiree can receive that computed amount. Upon reaching the retirement age (or immediately if qualified for regular retirement) they can still receive the disability percentage (if it was the higher when compared to longevity multiplier), but it is reduced by the amount of the VA comp. CRDP will restore the longevity portion of retired pay. Plus...the combination of residual retired pay (from reduction) plus CRDP, cannot exceed the longevity amount.

Bottom line: When considering CRDP, the combination with residual retired pay cannot exceed the amount of the longevity computation (e.g., in most cases AD yrs x 2,5%).

Ron

added: In all Chapter 61 retirement computations, the retired pay is reduced by the amount of the VA comp. It many cases that reduction is not detected because of the restoration of waived retired pay via CRDP shown only on page 2 of the DFAS RAS.
 

GatorNavy1

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SFC H,

Regarding, "If a reservist goes out on a chapter 61, that is their retirement. The disability pay starts when awarded a disability retirement. You can apply for your regular retirement at 60 provided you have 20 good yrs and think it would be more than the disability retirement. Why would the service member continue to 20 yr NOE when awarded a disability retirement, this would negate the whole purpose of the disability retirement. There are only good years and no such thing as partial good yrs. "

Correct.

There are those who already qualify for another type retirement, such as regular or RC, and that is important for CRDP purposes.
If the disability percentage is higher than the longevity multiplier the retiree can receive that computed amount. Upon reaching the retirement age (or immediately if qualified for regular retirement) they can still receive the disability percentage (if it was the higher when compared to longevity multiplier), but it is reduced by the amount of the VA comp. CRDP will restore the longevity portion of retired pay. Plus...the combination of residual retired pay (from reduction) plus CRDP, cannot exceed the longevity amount.

Bottom line: When considering CRDP, the combination with residual retired pay cannot exceed the amount of the longevity computation (e.g., in most cases AD yrs x 2,5%).

Ro

added: In all Chapter 61 retirement computations, the retired pay is reduced by the amount of the VA comp. It many cases that reduction is not detected because of the restoration of waived retired pay via CRDP shown only on page 2 of the DFAS RAS.
I don't quite understand. For a chap 61 let's say the dis ability rating is 90%
 

GatorNavy1

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RONG: "Plus...the combination of residual retired pay (from reduction) plus CRDP, cannot exceed the longevity amount."

I don't quite understand.

For example: Disability retirement is $3,000 (90% but paid 75% max). VA disability compensation is $3,400 (100%). Disability retirement is waived to receive VA compensation. The RAS shows zero retired pay. The member received a 20-year NOE after being placed on the PDRL. Until age 60 she will continue to just receive VA compensation. On her 60th birthday (15 years later) she applies for retired pay. Her longevity reserve component retired pay is $2,000. DFAS automatically kicks in CRDP once they get the pay order for retired pay from ARPC. Her RAS now shows $3,400 for VA compensation and $2,000 for retired pay. Her "take home" is a total of $5,400?
 

GatorNavy1

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I’m not completely following here, but from my experience inactive duty is only creditable to yrs of service for pay, like RonG said. These years are coded accordingly as well as a break in service is codes differently also.

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=F6FAnS7_Eyg
Thanks for the video....the NGB 23 explained in the video shows DEP with a MMSI code of E5....creditable service toward a NG retirement. Should be the same with all reserve components.
 

GatorNavy1

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Hello,

Re: "For a reserve retirement, if a member goes out on a chap. 61 there is no option to serve until the 20 year NOE shows up and then decide to retire or keep serving."

In conjunction with a Chapter 61 retirement, I don't think those in a regular status (i.e., AD) have the option to serve to 20 years AD and possibly continue serving either. I have seen many who would have preferred tp remain on active duty, but did not have a choice.

In any case, your concern is understandable.

Regards,
Ron

cc: @tony292
thanks, please see my last post....I apologize for the flag
 

RonG

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Hello,

Questions:
I don't quite understand.

For example: Disability retirement is $3,000 (90% but paid 75% max). VA disability compensation is $3,400 (100%). Disability retirement is waived to receive VA compensation. The RAS shows zero retired pay. The member received a 20-year NOE after being placed on the PDRL. Until age 60 she will continue to just receive VA compensation. On her 60th birthday (15 years later) she applies for retired pay. Her longevity reserve component retired pay is $2,000. DFAS automatically kicks in CRDP once they get the pay order for retired pay from ARPC. Her RAS now shows $3,400 for VA compensation and $2,000 for retired pay. Her "take home" is a total of $5,400?

Reply:

1. Disability retirement @ 75% x high three = 3000
2. 3000 is reduced by 3400 VA amt = zero retired pay
3. One does not accrue creditable service while on the PDRL which is Permanent Disability Retired List.
4. If one achieved the 20 good years prior to being placed on the PDRL, the scenario you presented would apply. It does not matter when one receives the NOE letter; the date one achieved/earned/qualified for the NOE is important...pertinent.

Ron
 

GatorNavy1

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So I guess the question remains to be? Was the anniversary year start date the day the member entered DEP or the day when she reported for active duty BEFORE 1995? Today the anniversary year starts the day the member enters DEP and does not change when the member reports for active duty. The DEP time counts toward a reserve reirement. From 1985 to 1989? DEP time was not considered to be credible service toward a reserve component retirement. My head hurts...thanks in advace.
 

RonG

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Hello.

Note: You might want to jump to Sections IV and V below.

This post contains information related to the subject of this thread.

Section I. Creditable Service for Pay Purposes (e.g.., the creditable service that determines whether a soldier would be paid as an E6 over 6 years or E6 over 8 years, an example). Also see Section III, this post.

Reference: DoD 7000.14-R Financial Management Regulation Volume 7A, Chapter 1

0102 CREDITABLE SERVICE *010201. Service Which is Creditable [for pay, not necessarily for longevity retirement]

B. Computation of Creditable Service. For most members who enter and serve on active duty without a break in service, the basic pay date is the date the member enters active or inactive service. If, however, there is a break in service, the time between periods of service usually is not included. Also, there are statutory periods when service in a particular component may not be counted. Conversely, there are periods for which some members are given constructive service, even though they were not actually serving on active or inactive duty. Use subparagraphs 010201.C through E to compute the basic pay date when there has been a break in service of any kind or if there is a need to include constructive service.

D. Other Creditable Service (with restrictions noted in this subparagraph and in subparagraph 010202.A). Include the following periods of service:

[For Pay Purposes] 12. Service as an enlisted member in a Reserve Component, including Ready Reserve service (inactive and active) under the Delayed Entry (Enlistment) Program (DEP), before beginning active duty or an initial period of Active Duty Training (ADT), provided the Reserve enlistment was entered into before January 1, 1985. As of January 1, 1985, the following restrictions went into effect as and when stated: a. For enlistments in a Reserve Component under Title 10, U.S.C., section 12103(b) or (d), including enlistments under a DEP, that were entered into between January 1, 1985, and November 28, 1989, the period served in the Reserve Component before beginning active duty or an initial period of ADT is not creditable; or b. For enlistments entered into on or after November 29, 1989: (1) A period of enlisted service in a Reserve Component under 10 U.S.C. § 12103(b) or (d), including inactive service under a DEP, is creditable service only if the member performs Inactive Duty Training (IDT) before beginning active duty or an initial period of ADT; or (2) Service performed as an enlisted member in a Reserve Component under 10 U.S.C. § 513, other than a period of active duty, is not creditable service; or 13. Any period of service which was creditable under
any federal .... See https://comptroller.defense.gov/Portals/45/documents/fmr/current/07a/07a_01.pdf <----LINK
-----------------------

Section II. Retired Pay Base

Retired Pay Base
There are two methods for determining the retired pay base. They are the final pay method and the high-36 month average method. The final pay method, as the name implies, establishes the retired pay base equal to final basic pay. The high-36 method is the average of the highest 36 months of basic pay divided by 36. This is generally the last 3 years of service and is sometimes called high-3. The method used depends upon when the member first entered military service.

The method is determined by DIEMS (Date of Initial Entry to Military Service) or DIEUS (Date of Initial Entry to Uniformed Services). The date a member first entered uniformed service in any capacity establishes DIEMS. This date is fixed---it does not change. Departing the military and rejoining does not affect DIEMS.

Some individuals have unique circumstances that complicate determining their DIEMS. Here are a few examples:

  • The DIEMS for Service Academy graduates who entered an Academy with no prior service is the date they reported to the Service Academy, not the date they graduated.
  • Beginning an ROTC scholarship program or enlisting as a Reserve in the Senior ROTC program sets the DIEMS, not the graduation or commissioning date.
  • Members who entered the military, separated, and then rejoined the military have a DIEMS based on entering the first period of military service.
  • The DIEMS for members who enlisted under the delayed entry program is when they entered the delayed entry program, not when they initially reported for duty.
  • For those who joined the Reserves and later joined the active component, their DIEMS is the date they joined the Reserves.
Be aware that pay date (e.g., Pay Entry Base Date) may be different than DIEMS. Also, DIEMS does not determine when creditable service toward retirement is calculated---it only determines which retired pay base method applies.

Reference: Retirement <---LINK

------------------------------------------------------------------------


Section III. Reserve Retirement

Years of Service
There are 3 categories for determining years of creditable service that have applicability to the computation of reserve (non-regular) retired pay. One for determining when an individual is entitled to retired pay, one for determining the applicable active duty base pay upon which to compute retired pay, and one for determining the retired pay percentage multiplier. For reserve retirements these are generally different.

The first category we shall call- Years of Service for Retirement Entitlement. This category of years of service includes each one year period in which the person has been credited with at least 50 points, as follows:

  • 1 point for each day of active service
  • 1 point for each attendance at a drill period
  • 1 point for each day of performing funeral honors duty
  • 15 points for each year of membership in a reserve component
Generally, a member retiring with a Reserve (non-regular) retirement must have 20 years of service for entitlement and they will receive a letter from their Service advising when this criteria has been met.

The second category we shall call- Years of Service for Pay Base. When combined with pay grade, YOS for pay base, determines the active duty pay entitlement by defining the appropriate pay table cell, e.g. E-4 over 6 years of service. This category of years of service includes all periods of active service and all periods of Reserve or National Guard service counted day for day. A unique feature of Reserve retirement is that the pay base is determined as though the reserve member were serving on active duty immediately prior to retirement, thus the years of service continue to accumulate even after the member has entered the retired reserve and continue until they actually begin receiving such pay (usually age 60).

The third category we shall call- Years of Service for Retired Pay Percentage Multiple. YOS for retirement percentage multiple determines the years of service for computing the retired pay multiplier. This category of years of service includes all periods of active service (counted as one point for each day) plus all points earned through qualifying reserve duty, not exceeding annual limits, divided by 360.

Reference: Reserve Retirement <---LINK

-----------------------------------------


Section IV. Inactive Reserve--Delayed Entry Program

The Delayed Enlistment Program (sometimes called the Delayed Entry Program) is also called the Future Soldiers Program in the Army. Individuals going onto active duty, enlist first into the DEP. This is an actual enlistment into the inactive reserves, with an agreement to report for active duty (to ship out to boot camp) at a specific time in the future. Under current regulations, one can remain in the DEP for up to 365 days.

Ref: DOD INSTRUCTION 1215.07 SERVICE CREDIT FOR NON-REGULAR RETIREMENT
3.3. ELIGIBILITY FOR RETIREMENT POINT CREDIT FOR NON-REGULAR RETIREMENT.
Service members in the following categories are eligible for retirement point credit:
a. AC or RC members in active service.
b. RC members in an active status as defined in Section 10141 of Title 10, U.S.C. This includes service in a Delayed Entry Program established in Section 513 of Title 10, U.S.C., credited toward non-regular retirement because it is service in an active status as a member of the Ready Reserve.
See 10 U.S. Code § 513 - Enlistments: Delayed Entry Program <----LINK

d. RC members in an inactive status in accordance with Section 10152 of Title 10, U.S.C., may not receive service credit for retirement pursuant to Section 12734(a) of Title 10, U.S.C. Individuals who have completed the service requirement for retired pay and have not attained the age specified in Section 12731(f) of Title 10, U.S.C., may transfer to an inactive status, but may not receive retirement point credit in that status.


ARMY
AR 140–185 • 3 August 2018
1–6. Eligibility a. Retirement point credit is authorized for—
(1) Reserve Component (RC) in active Service Ready Reserve (RR).
(2) RC in an active status as defined in 10 USC 10141. This includes Servicemembers in a Delayed Entry Program (DEP) established by 10 USC 513. This service is credited toward non-regular retirement since it is service in an active status as a member of the RR.
(3) Reserve Officer Training Corps (ROTC)/Simultaneous Membership Program (SMP), DEP Soldiers, RR Soldiers in an active status and active Standby Reserve Soldiers.
(4) Voluntary and involuntary IDT.

---------------------------

Section V, Personal Assessment.

Using DoDI 1215.07, July 30, 2019 as a guide, it appears the DEP would be creditable. However, some of regulations cited above suggest otherwise. For example, some publications refer to DEP as Inactive Reserves. See the 'addition" below that shows the DEP is creditable ONLY

3.3. ELIGIBILITY FOR RETIREMENT POINT CREDIT FOR NON-REGULAR RETIREMENT. Service members in the following categories are eligible for retirement point credit: a. AC or RC members in active service. b. RC members in an active status as defined in Section 10141 of Title 10, U.S.C. This includes service in a Delayed Entry Program established in Section 513 of Title 10, U.S.C., credited toward non-regular retirement because it is service in an active status as a member of the Ready Reserve.

Added: b. For enlistments entered into on or after November 29, 1989: (1) A period of enlisted service in a Reserve Component under 10 U.S.C. § 12103(b) or (d), including inactive service under a DEP, is creditable service only if the member performs Inactive Duty Training (IDT) before beginning active duty or an initial period of ADT; or (2) Service performed as an enlisted member in a Reserve Component under 10 U.S.C. § 513, other than a period of active duty, is not creditable service; ....
Reference: DoD 7000.14-R Financial Management Regulation Volume 7A, Chapter 1
0102 CREDITABLE SERVICE *010201. Service Which is Creditable


Good luck,
Ron
 

GatorNavy1

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3.3 (b) is where the meat is. The Ready Reserves are an active non-regular (Reserve) component. As you can see in the AF526 snippet I provided, they awarded 1 membership point for the DEP time. The problem with ARPC is how they set the anniverary year begin date. They set the anniverary year beginning date the day she entered into active duty. It should have been the day when she signed up for DEP. The effect is that they counted the membership point for DEP timeframe for retirement, but they didn't count the time she was actually on DEP (a month and a few days). Without the DEP time she is short of 20 good years by a week!
 

RonG

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Good luck to our friend...

This is pertinent:
Added: b. For enlistments entered into on or after November 29, 1989: (1) A period of enlisted service in a Reserve Component under 10 U.S.C. § 12103(b) or (d), including inactive service under a DEP, is creditable service ONLY if the member performs Inactive Duty Training (IDT) before beginning active duty or an initial period of ADT; or (2) Service performed as an enlisted member in a Reserve Component under 10 U.S.C. § 513, other than a period of active duty, is not creditable service; ....
Reference: DoD 7000.14-R Financial Management Regulation Volume 7A, Chapter 1
0102 CREDITABLE SERVICE *010201. Service Which is Creditable

Ron
 
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