Eight year rule

Fishmom

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New to the site and late to the game, but can you provide an update on your case?
I wish I had an update to give. I appealed the NILOD last summer. My package has been sitting with AFRC/CV for weeks now. Frankly, I have given up hope. I have to decide how much I am willing to invest financially in getting ILOD. For right now I just wait and pray that the A1 people aren't actively working against me and advising the Vice Commander against my case.
 

Guardguy11

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And here I thought the Guard was the only SC that really boogered up LODs. I submitted my LOD appeal last week, but I was fortunate that even though they sais NILOD-NSA, they stamped "EIGHT YEAR RULE APPLIES" in three different spots on it so I was able to press on with my IRILO in the hopes that someone at NGB DN2DP will actually give me a fair decision based on the facts and not that they think the system is rigged and want to save the government money.
 

flyin_dutchman

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So, I just spoke with my commander yesterday. They LOD Program manager, who is located in the MPF, guided him through initiating the LOD Appeal in the computer system used to track it. So, my appeal has official started makin its way through the wickets again.
Hello again Fishmom. How is your situation going? I have been off-line for a bit and catching back up. I am now retired with Full AD retirement, not medical. ARPC called me and said i was found un-fit, but had my full 20 yr TAFMS, so I retired 1 April.
 

Elwayb13

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And here I thought the Guard was the only SC that really boogered up LODs. I submitted my LOD appeal last week, but I was fortunate that even though they sais NILOD-NSA, they stamped "EIGHT YEAR RULE APPLIES" in three different spots on it so I was able to press on with my IRILO in the hopes that someone at NGB DN2DP will actually give me a fair decision based on the facts and not that they think the system is rigged and want to save the government money.
In a similar situation and I'm thinking a congressional is in my future.
 

Fishmom

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If it comes back NILOD again, I dont know what I'll do. I cant afford to continue to pay an attorney thousands of dollars when in the end nothing may change. This has also put me moving forward with my life after cancer kind of in limbo. I want to start reconstruction but if this may be found ILOD and I can have the surgeons I originally met with that is what I'd like to do. If not, then I need to start looking for a surgical team and figure how much this will cost out of pocket. It's all just such B.S. I try to stay happy and positive but some days it's very hard.
 

Guardguy11

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If it comes back NILOD again, I dont know what I'll do. I cant afford to continue to pay an attorney thousands of dollars when in the end nothing may change. This has also put me moving forward with my life after cancer kind of in limbo. I want to start reconstruction but if this may be found ILOD and I can have the surgeons I originally met with that is what I'd like to do. If not, then I need to start looking for a surgical team and figure how much this will cost out of pocket. It's all just such B.S. I try to stay happy and positive but some days it's very hard.
Your case definitely sounds worthy of a congressional report. It wouldn't take much time commitment from you but should help find what is taking so long. Google who your congressman/woman is and look up their website. They should have an e-mail me now function and you can ask them if they have a specific form to file a congressional inquiry on your behalf.
 

Fishmom

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UPDATE!! My LOD appeal had moved very slowly through the process and every reviewer determined that the initial determination was correct and stated that I had provided no new evidence. So, I spoke with my NAF/SG folks about my situation a few weeks back. They reviewed my documents and the case in its entirety and recommended that I write to my congressman to put some pressure on the folks in the process. I did as they had recommended and the rep from my congressman's office called me the next day. I sent them everything I had and they forwarded a request to HAF to provide "evidence that member's condition existed prior to the period of service". Two weeks later, I have the appeal determination on my desk. MGen Flournoy (AFRC/CV) has concurred with my appeal and has determined my condition to be IN THE LINE OF DUTY!

Never give up folks. Fight the good fight from the beginning of the process when correcting the wrongs is not as arduous.
 

Fishmom

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I don't know. I know someone has to update my information in DEERS or DMDC so I am eligible for TRICARE for my continued treatment and reconstruction. I also, still have not been entered into the IDES, which is supposed to occur. I still have a lot of questions that I need answered. I will keep you posted what I fid out.
 

Guardguy11

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I feel like this whole thing is about to get complicated. You won't be eligible for TRICARE until you get on orders. You can't be put on orders solely for the purpose of IDES, but if you enter into IDES on orders, they have to keep you on orders throughout the process.

Your best bet would be to work the MEDCON angle. If your MEDCON manager gives you crap, you can apply yourself without them via a MyPERS application that you can access via the portal. On the application it tells you everything you need to apply. Most likely, you will have to fill out an "untimely package submission" MFR which should be a cakewalk since you have proof they jacked you around. Get your primary doctor to write out a "Care plan" in which they can show that you are in some form of restorative care. Once they get you on MEDCON orders, THEN push for the IDES. This forces their hand to keep you on orders for the entire IDES process.

I can help with more specifics if needed.
 

Jason Perry

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You can't be put on orders solely for the purpose of IDES, but if you enter into IDES on orders, they have to keep you on orders throughout the process.
I am not sure what you mean that "You can't be put on orders solely for the purpose of IDES...."
Yes, you can. It happens all the time. In the Air Force, they term it as MEDCON orders. The other branches have similar processes (with different terminology). But, I just wanted to point out that you can go on orders for purposes of medical disability evaluation.
 

Hawaii5-0

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In the Air Force, they term it as MEDCON orders. The other branches have similar processes (with different terminology). But, I just wanted to point out that you can go on orders for purposes of medical disability evaluation.
Thanks Jason for chiming in on this one.

Fishmom look up AFI 36-2910 5.2; and 5.2.6. Speaks to not needing SAF approval to keep you on extended order if you are in the DES. “Unless the member is entered into the DES IAW AFI 41-210”
 

Fishmom

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Just to clarify. I do not know how the AFRC/CV came to his conclusion. I know I filed a substantive appeal through my LOD Program Manager and waited, and waited and waited. All along the way, every approval authority along the way denied my appeal. I wrote to my congressman's office and they submitted very specific questions to HAF. They have not received a response as yet. So I do not know if that even played into this. Also, I reached out through my Wing/CC to the NAF/CC asking them to reach out to AFRC/CC on my behalf. I don't know if that happened or even played a part in this decision. What I do know is that I reached out in every way I could think of to everyone I could think of, seeking assistance. So what is the lesson? Never give up. File your appeal per AFI. Then fight. Fight like your life depends on it.
 

Guardguy11

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I am not sure what you mean that "You can't be put on orders solely for the purpose of IDES...."
Yes, you can. It happens all the time. In the Air Force, they term it as MEDCON orders. The other branches have similar processes (with different terminology). But, I just wanted to point out that you can go on orders for purposes of medical disability evaluation.
I just called my ARC-CMD liaison to make sure I am saying this right. I went through this same process. 36-2910 MEDCON eligibility states that you must be in some form of restorative care plan. Taking medication and waiting between medical appointments doesn't qualify for MEDCON. I don't know Fishmom's current status, but unless she qualifies for some type of "restorative" treatment plan, she will be denied MEDCON. If you are not on MEDCON orders when you enter into the IDES, the AF won't put you on orders solely for IDES processing. DODI 1241.01 says the member will be given the opportunity to be "retained" on AD orders if they are coming to the end of their orders and have an unresolved medical condition. There is nothing specific for saying the member HAS to be on orders during IDES process, only that if they are already on orders, they will be give the opportunity to stay on orders during the IDES process.

It's complete bullshit and I don't agree with it, but I just went through it. She didn't have the AFI guidance off the top of her head for not putting someone on orders for IDES processing, but she is at the office that does it and gave me the same spiel last year.

She said the best option for Fishmom is to file a BCMR with her new ILOD and they should give you back pay for all entitlements and benefits she should have been on for being on MEDCON if her LOD was approved initially.

I am sure you have a unique perspective having fought these cases for years, so I am really interested to see your take on what my liaison said.
 

Guardguy11

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I should also say that from my dealings with MEDCON, it is only designed to help you get back to military service. When you start falling into the grey area of becoming disqualified for military service, MEDCON will fail you if you are having any delays with LOD processing. The grey area from between falling into code 37 on the AF 469 and entering the IDES gets really dicey on if you still qualify for MEDCON. I know for me, my appointments slowed down and my physical therapy for my shoulder ended so if it wasn't for my weekly counseling, I would have been kicked off of MEDCON waiting for the Guard to figure out my LOD.
 

Fishmom

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I just called my ARC-CMD liaison to make sure I am saying this right. I went through this same process. 36-2910 MEDCON eligibility states that you must be in some form of restorative care plan. Taking medication and waiting between medical appointments doesn't qualify for MEDCON. I don't know Fishmom's current status, but unless she qualifies for some type of "restorative" treatment plan, she will be denied MEDCON. If you are not on MEDCON orders when you enter into the IDES, the AF won't put you on orders solely for IDES processing. DODI 1241.01 says the member will be given the opportunity to be "retained" on AD orders if they are coming to the end of their orders and have an unresolved medical condition. There is nothing specific for saying the member HAS to be on orders during IDES process, only that if they are already on orders, they will be give the opportunity to stay on orders during the IDES process.

It's complete bullshit and I don't agree with it, but I just went through it. She didn't have the AFI guidance off the top of her head for not putting someone on orders for IDES processing, but she is at the office that does it and gave me the same spiel last year.

She said the best option for Fishmom is to file a BCMR with her new ILOD and they should give you back pay for all entitlements and benefits she should have been on for being on MEDCON if her LOD was approved initially.

I am sure you have a unique perspective having fought these cases for years, so I am really interested to see your take on what my liaison said.
Is there an AFI or some other guidance that tells you how to apply to BCMR to get the back pay and entitlements?
 

Guardguy11

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Is there an AFI or some other guidance that tells you how to apply to BCMR to get the back pay and entitlements?
This is another application you can file for yourself on the MyPers section of the AF PORTAL, but i would recommend getting legal counsel just to make sure you fill out the application correctly the first time. BCMRs are notorious for delays and it only gets compounded if you cause one of the delays yourself. I am absolutely certain that @Jason Perry will be able to help you navigate the BCMR to your advantage. The Air Force (Air National Guard) owes you some serious back pay for screwing up your LOD for so long.

I copied this directly from the MyPers Website - https://mypers.af.mil/app/answers/detail/a_id/3215/kw/AFBCMR/p/13

Applicable to: Military

Download and fill out the DD Form 149, Application for Correction of Military Record under the Provisions of Title 10, U.S. Code Section 1552. On the back of the DD Form 149 is the address where you need to submit the application. Original signature is required.

  • AFPAM 36-2607, Applicant's Guide to the Air Force Board for Correction of Military Records (AFBCMR)
  • AFI 36-2603, Air Force Board for Correction of Military Records (AFBCMR)
If your contention involves a medical issue, you must also fill out a consent to release your medical records from the Veterans Administration (VA). You must fill out a VA Form 10-5345, Request For and Authorization to Release Medical Records or Health Information, sign and attach to the DD Form 149.

Hope this helps!
Brad
 

Guardguy11

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I found the AFI for orders disability processing for ARC members. AFI 36-3212 Physical Evaluation for Retention, Retirement, and Separation is where it talks specifically about the disability evaluation of ARC members in chapter 8.

Paragraph:
8.1 Purpose. This chapter provides the guidelines for processing through the disability system certain ARC members who meet eligibility requirements in paragraph 8.2 Paragraph 8.3 gives an ineligibility guideline. The Air Force disability system will evaluate ARC members who meet the basic requirements for disability benefits under 10 U.S.C., chapter 61.

8.2. Eligibility for Disability Processing. The following ARC members who have impairments which were incurred or aggravated in the line of duty are eligible for disability processing:
8.2.1. On active duty for 31 days or more while the member was entitled to basic pay.
8.2.3. On active duty for 30 days or less or on call to Inactive Duty Training (IDT).

8.6.1. An ARC member who incurs a disability while performing AD on orders for 30 days or less is not ordered or continued on AD past the date specified solely for processing under this instruction. However, the member is eligible to receive medical care and evaluation.

8.6.2. ARC members who incur or aggravate an injury, illness or disease in the line of duty while on orders for more than 30 days are not involuntarily released from those orders until final disposition of their disability case. These members' entitlement to full pay and allowances and benefits continue to the same extent provided by law or regulation to regular component members.

So while I fell under the 8.6.2 paragraph for my situation, "They" told me that MEDCON is the AF mechanism to keep me on orders to meet the intent of this AFI, but if you fail to qualify for MEDCON, you will be cut off. It is definitely a situation where you could probably fight the BCMR to fix it, but you are stuck in the limbo in the mean time without being on orders during the IDES process.
 

Jason Perry

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I found the AFI for orders disability processing for ARC members. AFI 36-3212 Physical Evaluation for Retention, Retirement, and Separation is where it talks specifically about the disability evaluation of ARC members in chapter 8.
I hope you found this regulation on this site. It has been posted since 2013:

My point is not to be snarky. It is to suggest that most questions and answers are available on this site.

Hope this helps!
 

Guardguy11

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I don't think that is snarky at all. You are definitely the expert with this stuff so I am open to any information you have to share with us.

I just went through this myself less than two months ago and talked specifically to a ARC-CMD liaison about this situation. If I am misspeaking, than it is only because the office that is responsible for medcon gave me bad information.

If there is something I can use as leverage to show the medcon people they are wrong, please pass it my way. I will contact them and let them know so they don't try to deny anyone else.
 
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