no INCAP supposed to be on orders.

FRAUSCHMID

PEB Forum Regular Member
I was injured while deployed. I have a LOD and was involuntarily taken off orders. Still injured. Went to apply for incap pay, was told probably not eligible because I am supposed to be on orders (AFRCI 36-3004 1.3). Unit refuses to put me on orders.....errrr Any advice as how to proceed now?

thanks.
carrie
 

OneFavor

PEB Forum Regular Member
PEB Forum Veteran
Carrie,
I would apply for it anyway. Alot of times units do not clearly understand certain things, like the fact that you probably should have been left on orders(more info would be needed for clarity). Apply for it, that way you have covered your end. Are you receiving care at an MTF for you LOD issues? You will also want to read and study the AR 135-381, you may also want to read the AR 600-8-4. Most states are going to want to see that you at least attempted to get some kind of assistance. If all else fails, and you have been through your chain of command, then you may want to file an IG complaint or talk with your congressman, or try the Ombudsman. A word of advice try to get everything in writing, rather it is email, sworn statement, that way you and the other person can account for what was discussed.
 

OneFavor

PEB Forum Regular Member
PEB Forum Veteran
Since this thread was pertaining to INCAP, I thought I would ask this here. I have reviewed the regs several times, and even reviewed the instruction listed, but I am still a little lost here. I have an approved LOD, was paid normally(full pay & allowances) for 6 months now I receive this memo stating "approved for the period 01 October 2008 to 30 March 2009 for lost civilian wages only. In April 2003, the Statue changed the verbiage of Department of Defense Directive 1241.1 of the Reserve Component Incapacitation System. Where it read the term "full military duty" was eliminated and replaced by the term "military duty". The change means that when a member is returned to duty after an incapacitation, the duty which returned may be any duty of which qualified, as determined by the Secretary concerned and not necessarily the specialty skill held prior to the member's incapacitation." I have a physicians statement clearly marked for me not to perform any military as well as civilian duties, and I have at no time since I have been ill cleared to return to duty.
Side note-I found a DoD directive 1241.1 dated for Feb 04 but not the one listed above, if anyone has it can you please send it to me.

Can anyone explain this? Thank you in advance
 

robs42

Well-Known Member
PEB Forum Veteran
sorry to hear about your INCAP issues. i've been going through the same BS since 0ct 2008. i was injured in aug 2006 and was placed on orders then in 2008 my unit decided to put me in an INCAP status. ever since then it has been a HUGE pain in the a$$. if you have any questions w/the program, just shoot me an e-mail and maybe i can shed some light on this. good luck and keep us posted.
 

VAJumper

Moderator
PEB Forum Veteran
Carrie,

If you were involuntarily taken off orders and you are unable to perform military duties (as documented by your doctor), they must bring you back on orders until you are fit for military duty or processed thorugh the disability evaluation system. If you apply for INCAP now, they will force you to prove you have a loss of civlian income plus you will lose those vaulable retirement points. If you've already reported for military duty and done reserve work, they will say you've just demonstrated you ARE fit for duty. I wouldn't accept that. What they are asking for now, is that you prove you are unfit by using a Duty Limiting Condition Report which can completed by any military doctor.

If you are an IMA, this issue is currently being examined at AFRC/RMG at Robins. My best advice is to contact RMG directly and speak to Col Z, since she is spearheading the investigation now. You're right in pointing out the guidance...members are not involuntarily released from orders...but they've done it to me 7 times, even after I was given a permanent disability rating from the IPEB. The INCAP process in the USAFR is horrible--took me five months and I gave up once and went for the orders retroactively and got them. My advice is, go for the orders...

If you are a unit reservist, you must have a physician document your conditions on a Duty Limiting Condition report. If your conditions prevent you from doing your reserve duty, they must put you on orders. If not, you can apply for incap but must be able to prove a loss of civilian income.

I was injured while deployed. I have a LOD and was involuntarily taken off orders. Still injured. Went to apply for incap pay, was told probably not eligible because I am supposed to be on orders (AFRCI 36-3004 1.3). Unit refuses to put me on orders.....errrr Any advice as how to proceed now?

thanks.
carrie
 

VAJumper

Moderator
PEB Forum Veteran
Onefavor, I think I answered your question in my response to Carrie. Bottom line though, is if you qualify for AD orders...press to get them. INCAP is available if you are not fit for military duty AND you request them. They can't force INCAP on you to keep you off orders...if they do (and I read somewhere here they did that to someone), and you can prove it, I'd press forward with an IG compaint to get back all the accrued benefits orders provide. If however, you have a condition that would allow you to perform some level of your military duties, they may claim you are "Fit for Duty" and say your only recourse is to apply for INCAP benefits if you can prove a loss of civilian income. (they wouldn't accept my loss of unemployment benefits either).

I suppose I could have someone drive me to work while I'm heavily sedated, wheel me into a cubicle allowing me to put my leg up on table, and stare blankley into a computer screen. If I did that they'd probably say, "see--your fit for military duty" and can be released from orders! I was actually removed from orders and told I could report for duty to perform my reserve IDTS and AT. I fought that battle and won...but how many others succombed to the pressure? I'd love to hear stories like that from any reserve and guard. I'm compiling a report now.
 

HVAA

PEB Forum Regular Member
Carrie,

While on Active Duty MPA orders (for over a period of over 31 days) I sustained a Line of Duty Injury, torn shoulder labrum. Days after my initial processing through the Medical Center and Squadron, I was involuntarily released from Active Duty orders, which conflicts with the clear guidance set forth in AFRCI 36-3004,

"1.3. Continued on Active Duty Orders. Members on active duty orders for a specified period of 31 days or more are not involuntarily released from their orders if they incur a line of duty medical condition. These members have their orders extended until the medical condition is resolved or can no longer be materially improved by further hospitalization or treatment, and the case has been processed and finalized through the disability evaluation system (DES), or the medical condition has been determined not in the line of duty."

and AFI 36-3212:

"8.6.2. ARC members who incur or aggravate an injury, illness or disease in the line of duty while on orders for more than 30 days are not involuntarily released from those orders until final disposition of their disability case. These members' entitlement to full pay and allowances and benefits continue to the same extent provided by law or regulation to regular component members."

After providing this guidance to my leadership at the Group level, I was reluctantly placed back on MPA orders. It sounds like you are in a similar situation and will have the same outcome if you proceed in a professional manner. Please let us know what happens.

HVAA
 

FRAUSCHMID

PEB Forum Regular Member
UPDATE:
I researched the reference provided by everyone. I forwarded them up my chain. The LtCol handling my stuff consulted with the clinic, who stated that AFRCI 36-3004 1.3 does not apply to my situation, it only applies to severely incapacitated individuals such as ( to use their example), someone blown up in Iraq. Since, I only have an anterior glenoid labral tear, shoulder impingment and a unresolved spot on my spine, I do not qualify. I asked to be shown where in the AFI it states the preceeding statement. I was told that I would not find it, but the intent of the AFI is as interpretted by the clinic. I have since applied for the INCAP pay, which the same chain has had for two weeks? waiting for the OG/CC signature. Unfortunately, I have had to file an IG complaint to pursue application of the AFRCI 36-3004 1.3-which has resulted in further grief. I am an ART, no I have been advised that my meeting with the IG will be taken out of my annual leave, although I have explained that the meeting involved military and civilian issues, especially issues involving hostile work environment as follows:
coworkers have been directed not to speak to me ( OG/CC has confirmed this), I have been removed from the org chart, I have been directed to clean out my desk and take my things home, I have been moved to an isolated part of the building to answer a phone (it only rings when my husband calls). Doc orders are only followed on management's whim.- these are just the big issues.
Errrrr....sorry to vent. thanks for listening and all the information. I have gotten more information from all of you in response to this post, than from my base in 8 months. I'll post more as things progress.
 

FRAUSCHMID

PEB Forum Regular Member
newest update-
because I was given a participation waiver 25 Nov 09, I am not eligible for the orders. what is a participation waiver? I have been under medical care since the injury. My time off from work is not covered, any suggestions?

Timeline-
25 nov 08 -CED orders started
26 DEC 08-injured while deployed
10 May 09- CED orders ended
16 Oct 09- Med con orders started
25 Nov 09- Med con orders ended
25 Nov 09-participation waiver

thanks.
 

robs42

Well-Known Member
PEB Forum Veteran
i would fight this and get your unit to put an INCAP package in for you. your situation is what the program is designed for. i've been on INCAP since Oct 2008. it's a pain in the a$$ and the program suck but it beats the alternative (which is NOTHING). if your unit won't do their job, i would contact a local politician. that will get your unit moving. if you have any questions, feel free to contact me. good luck and keep us posted.
 

HVAA

PEB Forum Regular Member
UPDATE:...coworkers have been directed not to speak to me ( OG/CC has confirmed this), I have been removed from the org chart, I have been directed to clean out my desk and take my things home, I have been moved to an isolated part of the building to answer a phone (it only rings when my husband calls). Doc orders are only followed on management's whim.- these are just the big issues...
Sounds like you need to employ the Whistle-blower Protection Act, check this out:
 

VAJumper

Moderator
PEB Forum Veteran
Thank you for sharing the information about the participation waiver. I know exactly what participation waiver you're talking about. They tried to push that on me but I refused to sign it. Read the waiver carefully. It states the waiver allows you to perform IDTs and AT only so that you can obtain a satisfactory "good year" for points. The waiver ONLY applies to those that have "Little or no impairment." At the time they tried to get me to sign it, I had 100 points and had serious disabilities so both points for obtaining the waiver were invalid. If you had more than 50 points towards a good year, the waiver was invalid for you too. I don't know about your medical situation, but for me I am not able to stand, walk, or sit greater than 10 mins. and must keep my leg elevated while at rest. These "duty limiting conditions" are what determines your level of impairment. If your DLCs are not accurately reflected in your report, go back to your doctor and insist that he/she put them in along with a date as to when these impairments began. Than could make the waiver null and void and you might be entitled to retroactive active duty orders or incapacitation pay. Remember, INCAP is available if you ASK for it. If you don't, they should put you on orders retroactive to the start of your line of duty condition.

Please email me and I'll be able to talk one on one with you to try and help you.

newest update-
because I was given a participation waiver 25 Nov 09, I am not eligible for the orders. what is a participation waiver? I have been under medical care since the injury. My time off from work is not covered, any suggestions?

Timeline-
25 nov 08 -CED orders started
26 DEC 08-injured while deployed
10 May 09- CED orders ended
16 Oct 09- Med con orders started
25 Nov 09- Med con orders ended
25 Nov 09-participation waiver

thanks.
 

VAJumper

Moderator
PEB Forum Veteran
OneFavor--what branch of service are you, and did you get this resolved yet?

Since this thread was pertaining to INCAP, I thought I would ask this here. I have reviewed the regs several times, and even reviewed the instruction listed, but I am still a little lost here. I have an approved LOD, was paid normally(full pay & allowances) for 6 months now I receive this memo stating "approved for the period 01 October 2008 to 30 March 2009 for lost civilian wages only. In April 2003, the Statue changed the verbiage of Department of Defense Directive 1241.1 of the Reserve Component Incapacitation System. Where it read the term "full military duty" was eliminated and replaced by the term "military duty". The change means that when a member is returned to duty after an incapacitation, the duty which returned may be any duty of which qualified, as determined by the Secretary concerned and not necessarily the specialty skill held prior to the member's incapacitation." I have a physicians statement clearly marked for me not to perform any military as well as civilian duties, and I have at no time since I have been ill cleared to return to duty.
Side note-I found a DoD directive 1241.1 dated for Feb 04 but not the one listed above, if anyone has it can you please send it to me.

Can anyone explain this? Thank you in advance
 

OneFavor

PEB Forum Regular Member
PEB Forum Veteran
VAJumper

I am in Army NG. I did some more research, and then I just sent the appeal to the INCAP pay. I have now received another 6 months of pay. I just hate that they make you jump through so many hoops, and try to sway you to just give up. I just wish that soldiers like myself, who have had credit issues because units decide to do what they want, had some kind of additional recourse to take. I just had my admn sgt do another memo to request INCAP for the rest of 2009. I still have not been released to do ANYTHING, military or civilian. I will be that way until June, then I will be re-evaluated.
 

FRAUSCHMID

PEB Forum Regular Member
OneFavor--what branch of service are you, and did you get this resolved yet?
Air Force Reserve and I am an ART (Air Reserve Technician). No resolution to date. Today they handed me a bill for about $8,000 for time off given by my supervisor for pain, medical appts, physical therapy, etc. Now the I am being told my incap will probably not be approved, because I was injured over a year ago. After I got back from deployment (Ramstein) I was told I could not put in for INCAP until I was healed as it is a one time thing---wrong info! Nice folks.....this is what I get after 20 years of service. I will keep you posted with my progress of lack thereof
 

FRAUSCHMID

PEB Forum Regular Member
Thank you for sharing the information about the participation waiver. I know exactly what participation waiver you're talking about. They tried to push that on me but I refused to sign it. Read the waiver carefully. It states the waiver allows you to perform IDTs and AT only so that you can obtain a satisfactory "good year" for points. The waiver ONLY applies to those that have "Little or no impairment." At the time they tried to get me to sign it, I had 100 points and had serious disabilities so both points for obtaining the waiver were invalid. If you had more than 50 points towards a good year, the waiver was invalid for you too. I don't know about your medical situation, but for me I am not able to stand, walk, or sit greater than 10 mins. and must keep my leg elevated while at rest. These "duty limiting conditions" are what determines your level of impairment. If your DLCs are not accurately reflected in your report, go back to your doctor and insist that he/she put them in along with a date as to when these impairments began. Than could make the waiver null and void and you might be entitled to retroactive active duty orders or incapacitation pay. Remember, INCAP is available if you ASK for it. If you don't, they should put you on orders retroactive to the start of your line of duty condition.

Please email me and I'll be able to talk one on one with you to try and help you.
I wasn't given an option to sign or not sign. I received a phone call telling me. errrrrrr
 

VAJumper

Moderator
PEB Forum Veteran
Air Force Reserve and I am an ART (Air Reserve Technician). No resolution to date. Today they handed me a bill for about $8,000 for time off given by my supervisor for pain, medical appts, physical therapy, etc. Now the I am being told my incap will probably not be approved, because I was injured over a year ago. After I got back from deployment (Ramstein) I was told I could not put in for INCAP until I was healed as it is a one time thing---wrong info! Nice folks.....this is what I get after 20 years of service. I will keep you posted with my progress of lack thereof
Well, you're not alone here. I have 32 years of service and went without orders, Tricare Prime, or pay for almost 7 months following a serious injury, three surgeries, and other complications resulting from a lack of medical care. They tried to force feed the participation waiver thing on me but I wouldn't buy it. I eventually got placed on active duty orders retroactively. My condition is still pretty serious--bad enough that Social Security approved disability. If you didn't "SIGN" the waiver, it doesn't apply. If you had 50 or more points at the time of the waiver, it doesn't apply. If your injuries/illnesses have greater than little to no impairment, it doesn't apply. You need to bring this to the attention of the AFRC IG. I did, and it got their attention. They are VERY familiar of the waiver abuse and won;t stand for it. Here is the email contact information: SPENCER, DAVID A Maj USAF AFRC AFRC/IGQI [[email protected]].
 

VAJumper

Moderator
PEB Forum Veteran
This seems like the right thread to post this story. Here's a link with photos.

http://www.theusreport.com/the-us-report/usaf-reservist-battles-injury-and-government-insurance-syste.html


USAF reservist battles injury and government insurance system
Col. Doug Strand served for 11 years on active duty in the US Air Force and he has another 8 years on active duty as a reservist. He’s jumped out of planes and he’s served in Iraq. He probably never envisioned himself grappling with serious medical problems and he certainly didn’t envision dealing with the complexities of Tricare, a military health insurance plan. But a few minutes on a hot summer morning changed his life forever.

Strand was traveling on his motorcycle to report for duty as usual in July, 2008. The base was 5 miles from his house. The roads were wet and when he was about to turn, the back tire skidded on the slick pavement.

The good news: he came to a safe stop on a grassy shoulder.

The bad news: the bike fell on his leg, crushing the tibia and fibula.

Strand was treated at a civilian hospital and after surgery, he was sent home a few days later. He had an open incision about 12 inches long on his leg. It would be a month before the incision was surgically closed. He couldn’t stand, dress or bathe without assistance. His wife changed the dressings each day. He ordered bandages, dressings and crutches from Internet websites.

For some reason, placing him on continuous active duty orders—a requirement for the care and provisions he needed—took 7 months. Then there were administrative errors resulting in delinquent orders. Strand said Tricare personnel didn’t know what medical rights were afforded reservists who were injured even if they were on duty. Nothing went according to procedure and there were countless delays.

Completing his paperwork necessitated his traveling to the base 50 times and there was no assistance for transportation. He said, “I was told I would have to pay $500 from a private carrier for each round-trip appointment.”

Strand’s wife Vivian is a small woman—transporting him is next to impossible for her.

REGULATIONS CALL FOR ORDERS IMMEDIATELY
Strand said Dept. of Defense regulations actually require members to be placed on orders immediately for treatment and to ensure pay begins within 30 days.

One thing was clear—Tricare wouldn’t provide transportation to or from appointments even when the patient couldn’t stand or walk, much less drive.

And thank God for Internet medical supply companies.

Tricare was the only insurance Strand had, relying as many in the Guard and Reserves do on government employee insurance. He said because of his frequent activations, he hasn’t had a full-time civilian job since 1999. Ironically had Strand not been on active duty, he might have been better off.

The premium-based Tricare Reserve Select coverage would’ve kicked in had he not been activated. But since he was active, that coverage would not apply.

In Strand’s case, the complications and misfires with government regulations had a negative impact on his health.

BATTLING RSD
A condition called Reflex Sympathetic Dystrophy set in. Strand said, “RSD is believed to be the result of dysfunction in the central or peripheral nervous systems...[it] tricks my brain into thinking I have a brand new fractured leg and my body’s defenses rush to the area causing pain and swelling.” The pain can be excruciating. Col. Strand was sent home after surgery with an open incision about 12 inches long on his leg. It was a month before the incision was surgically closed, setting up opportunity for complications.

As a result of swelling, pulmonary embolisms developed.

And here’s the most frustrating part. Strand said, “If diagnosed and treated in the first few months, RSD can be reversed. Beyond that it progresses through stages of constant pain and swelling, atrophy of bones and muscles, and symptoms can spread anywhere in the body. It is a progressive disease—it gets worse over time.”

For patients with RSD, it is not uncommon for them to plead with a doctor to amputate their injured limb—they believe that will stop the pain. It doesn’t—phantom pain often persists.

Strand said his diagnosis came too late—9 months after the injury—due to delays in military medical care caused by Tricare and paperwork at the Reserves.

As he struggled to heal and as he and his wife Vivian dealt with getting him back and forth to the base for the paperwork, he realized the numerous trips aggravated his wound. How could he elevate his leg when he had to travel back and forth to deal with procedural issues? He doesn’t mention the stress, but there would have been plenty of that as well.

STRAND REALIZED HE ISN'T ALONE
Strand said he discovered the problem he had with his “orders” aren’t unique. “This is happening to the Reserves and Guard in all branches of service,” Strand said. “If these branches complied with already existing laws passed by Congress and regulations written by DoD, there would be few issues with members obtaining healthcare and other entitlements...A sweeping inspection of medical order processes needs to be completed by each service’s Inspector General.”

Enforcement of standards typically falls within the IG’s office Strand said.

He also said staffers mismanage reservists who need medical attention—there’s “little to no accountability.”

Two wars have required more numbers of reservists and Guard than normal times and they are often on active duty for longer periods.

“Some reservists and Guard are returning from war zones with injuries. They are removed from orders and sent home without being processed through the disability evaluation system resulting in no pay or medical benefits. Being unable to work, they can lose their jobs, their homes and then their families.”

Strand also points out if a patient can’t walk or drive, some sort of transportation needs to be arranged.

Somehow, he’s kept a sense of humor. “I could win any ugly legs contest—hands down!” he told friends on Facebook.

But he’d really like to see the government address problems he and others in the Reserves or Guards face when they have a medical problem. His illness was complicated by countless paperwork glitches and delays in the treatment he needed. Others may experience the same, put in a position to fight not only the injury but also the government healthcare system.

“This has got to stop,” he said.
 

Jason Perry

Benevolent Leader
Site Founder
Staff Member
PEB Forum Veteran
Registered Member
I can't give details about my client's case on the forum due to confidentiality rules. However, FYI, yesterday, I filed a lawsuit against the US Government in the Court of Federal Claims for taking a reservist member injured on active duty orders off of active duty orders. I anticipate a favorable outcome and at that point will likely pursue this issue on a grander scale. Flat out, the treatment described in this thread is not legal.

I remind everyone that the statute of limitations for making a claim against the Government in Federal court is 6 years. If you fall into a similar situation that occurred several years ago, I strongly urge you to seek legal advice.
 
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