I am a permanently retired army veteran who retired in Sept of 2016. I got into it with an active duty 0-4 Army Major today and wanted to know realistically what could possibly come of it. I was leaving a gym on an Army installation. When I walked out the door it was exactly 5 PM and retreat started playing. I had just had a Menieres attack and couldn't hear anything other than loud tinnitus. I continued walking back to my car during retreat when a 0-4 in civilian clothes approached me and told me to stop. I told him no I'm not a soldier and kept walking. He followed me all the way to my car and tried to get information on me and appeared to take my photo. I told him to stop harassing me and he said I violated the law and he was going to call security. I told him to fuck off, I'm a civilian and that I don't have time for hostile attitude. He finally continued walking and I had my wife take me home. She was waiting in the car. Realistically what if anything could come of this? To my knowledge the worst they can do is bar me from base.
UCMJ in retiree status?
- Thread starter DVtheTrenGod
- Start date
I looked up the regulation and couldn't get a clear answer. I highly doubt it's truly against the law. I didn't intend to ignore retreat but the speakers by the gym aren't very loud and I am very hard of hearing. I didn't think it was a huge deal. I am permanently disfigured and disabled due to my time in the Army. I think I have earned the right to sit one out so to speak. I was very surprised by the 0-4's behavior. He followed me around the gym and attempted to stop me about 3 times. I told him to stop time and time again. When I got to my wife's car he took out his phone and that's when I lost it. I honestly felt it was borderline harassment/stalking. Maybe I'm being over paranoid but I never go looking for trouble on base. I get my meds filled there and use the gym when I'm having a good day.
BTW I'm 100% permanent through the Army and VA. He even tried to take a picture of my license plate (Disabled Veteran). I have a natural distaste for a lot of military officers and this experience definitely didn't help that. I felt like he was looking to stir up trouble and flex his authority (he mentioned his rank numerous times).
I know that active duty service members are required to stop for retreat but I don't think a retiree (civilian) is required to. I know everyone is supposed to but how can they punish me? UCMJ?
DVtheTrenGod,
While I am no lawyer, and do no know the exact answer to this, I was curious. I found this post made by a guy in the militarytimes forum. The link is here: http://forums.militarytimes.com/showthread.php/7331-Retirees-subject-to-recall-for-UCMJ-Prosecution
------Posted 07-09-2013 by TSgt "M"-------------------------
From the Current Issue of Army Echos
Did You Know? Retired Soldiers and the Uniform Code of Military Justice
WASHINGTON — Have you ever heard a retired Soldier say, “They can’t touch me now; I’ve retired.”? Fortunately, for the sake of military justice, this is not true when it comes to retired Soldiers who violated the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) while they were on active duty or in a retired status.
Under Article 2 of the UCMJ, the Army maintains court-martial jurisdiction over retired personnel. Army Regulation 27-10, Military Justice, states “Retired members of a regular component of the Armed Forces who are entitled to pay are subject to the provisions of the UCMJ . . . and may be tried by court-martial for violations of the UCMJ that occurred while they were on active duty or while in a retired status.” Department of the Army policy, however, does limit these trials to cases where extraordinary circumstances are present. The Army normally declines to prosecute retired Soldiers unless their crimes have clear ties to the military, or are clearly service discrediting. If necessary to facilitate courts-martial action, retired Soldiers may be ordered to active duty.
The regulation adds that “Retired Reserve Component Soldiers are subject to recall to active duty for the investigation of UCMJ offenses they are alleged to have committed while in a Title 10 duty status, for trial by court-martial, or for proceedings under UCMJ, Article 15.” Forfeitures imposed under the UCMJ, Article 15 may even be applied against a Soldier’s retired pay
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While I am glad there are those that respect and enforce customs, they should also respect those who sacrificed for it. If he tried to keep that crap up, perhaps MEO may need to handle it.
Meinere's is also under the ADA, so if you go on base/post and fear this happening again maybe you could get a medical bracelet. I wonder if the VA can get you one? My mom wore one for crippling migraines for years. Later on she would have blackouts. She had 2 blackouts while driving, and the second she totaled her car. She had her bracelet on though, and it gave the Medics more awareness of what happened. She still wears one today.
Now I will say, that I have my own reservations about this. I was in uniform (ADAF, E5) at the clinic and some O-3 in a flight suit, about my age and a little smaller than me cut me in line at the pharmacy; probably because I didn't hear the guy at the window call "next". I really didnt even realize that I was even being cut, I just got off of a 12 hour shift and was covered in dirt/oil. This old man that was behind me was the one who made me aware, probably in his 70-80's. He was right behind the O-3 before he cut me, and he said "Son, if I was you, I would walk up to him and tell him a thing." He had a Korean war hat, tatoos and scars on his arms, and so I bet he would have. I grinned and I told him "To be honest sir, if I were a civilian (soon enough), I would have. But if I do it now, I am afraid of what might come out." He chuckled and patted my shoulder.
Hope this long post helps.
While I am no lawyer, and do no know the exact answer to this, I was curious. I found this post made by a guy in the militarytimes forum. The link is here: http://forums.militarytimes.com/showthread.php/7331-Retirees-subject-to-recall-for-UCMJ-Prosecution
------Posted 07-09-2013 by TSgt "M"-------------------------
From the Current Issue of Army Echos
Did You Know? Retired Soldiers and the Uniform Code of Military Justice
WASHINGTON — Have you ever heard a retired Soldier say, “They can’t touch me now; I’ve retired.”? Fortunately, for the sake of military justice, this is not true when it comes to retired Soldiers who violated the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) while they were on active duty or in a retired status.
Under Article 2 of the UCMJ, the Army maintains court-martial jurisdiction over retired personnel. Army Regulation 27-10, Military Justice, states “Retired members of a regular component of the Armed Forces who are entitled to pay are subject to the provisions of the UCMJ . . . and may be tried by court-martial for violations of the UCMJ that occurred while they were on active duty or while in a retired status.” Department of the Army policy, however, does limit these trials to cases where extraordinary circumstances are present. The Army normally declines to prosecute retired Soldiers unless their crimes have clear ties to the military, or are clearly service discrediting. If necessary to facilitate courts-martial action, retired Soldiers may be ordered to active duty.
The regulation adds that “Retired Reserve Component Soldiers are subject to recall to active duty for the investigation of UCMJ offenses they are alleged to have committed while in a Title 10 duty status, for trial by court-martial, or for proceedings under UCMJ, Article 15.” Forfeitures imposed under the UCMJ, Article 15 may even be applied against a Soldier’s retired pay
-------------------------------END----------------------------------
While I am glad there are those that respect and enforce customs, they should also respect those who sacrificed for it. If he tried to keep that crap up, perhaps MEO may need to handle it.
Meinere's is also under the ADA, so if you go on base/post and fear this happening again maybe you could get a medical bracelet. I wonder if the VA can get you one? My mom wore one for crippling migraines for years. Later on she would have blackouts. She had 2 blackouts while driving, and the second she totaled her car. She had her bracelet on though, and it gave the Medics more awareness of what happened. She still wears one today.
Now I will say, that I have my own reservations about this. I was in uniform (ADAF, E5) at the clinic and some O-3 in a flight suit, about my age and a little smaller than me cut me in line at the pharmacy; probably because I didn't hear the guy at the window call "next". I really didnt even realize that I was even being cut, I just got off of a 12 hour shift and was covered in dirt/oil. This old man that was behind me was the one who made me aware, probably in his 70-80's. He was right behind the O-3 before he cut me, and he said "Son, if I was you, I would walk up to him and tell him a thing." He had a Korean war hat, tatoos and scars on his arms, and so I bet he would have. I grinned and I told him "To be honest sir, if I were a civilian (soon enough), I would have. But if I do it now, I am afraid of what might come out." He chuckled and patted my shoulder.
Hope this long post helps.
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I'm not a lawyer, but I highly doubt any lawyer (even a military one) would feel comfortable attempting to prosecute a retired member for something as minor as this, especially considering your condition. Talk about a PR nightmare. I would however, report the Major to his command. Did you get his name? It almost sounds like he wasn't following retreat protocol if he was trying to chew your ass out during it....
Retirees are still subject to UCMJ. Everyone on an installation ought to respect the flag, more especially retirees. Your language was unbecoming. You my have not heard retreat, but once it was brought to your attention, you certianlty knew the score.
Will you be prosecuted? Probably not. But you could be banned from the installation for a period of time. Your conflict was not with the Major, but with military standards. The major provided on the spot correction. I applaud him.
Will you be prosecuted? Probably not. But you could be banned from the installation for a period of time. Your conflict was not with the Major, but with military standards. The major provided on the spot correction. I applaud him.
I think the 04 was an ass. I seriously doubt the Army would go through the trouble of bringing you back on active duty to punish you. There was a case years ago where a retired E8 was brought back out of retirement to stand trial for murder. But seriously this is such a small thing nobody is going to do anything about it. Even if they did, you could put over your medical condition causes hearing issues.
I think in the future having a standard answer ready would be a good thing. Something as simple as stating you have menieres which causes hearing loss and thus the only way you'd know it was retreat would be if you saw others standing and saluting.
I think that's a good idea. I guess I didn't look disabled enough to him. I can hardly hear anything due to my Meniere's and many times people assume I can hear them and they get angry when I look at them with a blank stare. He kept calling me "soldier" over and over. I have a 3 inch beard so I can't be mistaken for active duty. It wasn't me wanting to disrespect my country. He brought it to my attention but his tone was extremely hostile. He tried to use his rank to intimidate me. I remember the days I had to bite my tongue every time an officer belittled me. I was powerless when I was on active duty, I had to "respect the rank" and yada yada. I have had my ass chewed out more times than I can count but I have never been talked to like that. I told myself after I retired that I would never let another grown man talk down to me regardless of their rank or influence. I don't have to prove my "patriotism" to anybody. I have to live with the long term repercussions as an individual while the Army churns out new soldiers and spits broken ones out like used toys.
I respect your courage. People not in your shoe can come to a conclusion that you are not patriotic enough or disrespected the Major but respect is reciprocal. Correcting someone and disrespecting him because you outranked him is unacceptable. This is a common practice especially in the Army and one of the reason I thank God am retired, we are all grown adults and deserve respect. Thank you for your service.
As a prior enlisted now retired 04, I find his attitude unacceptable. I really hate condescending jackasses. Just know that he is powerless over you. He has no right to berate or intimidate anyone. It sucks that there are officers out there like that. I also knew many CSMs like that where junior enlisted would fear being around them. I guess I won't ever deal with it again personally as I retired far from any base. I would next time get his name and report him to the MPs for harassment.
If someone (especially a stranger) is being hostile in your direction, you have every right to try to get away from that person (even if it's during the playing of the anthem). Safety first!
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Ok fellas, I dont want to hijack the thread, and I dont mean to ramble, but I am having a moment and if it is too much of one, please let me know and I will edit or delete it. Its gots stories (all related) both funny and said, tears, blood, and kungfoo....
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tony292, I completely agree. I had an experience that taught me the lesson of the "military game" all the back in training.
I will post this story about a 2-Star run-in I witnessed. Hopefully this will renew your faith in the system.
Once upon a time, I remember when I was at Keesler AFB for tech school July-Aug 09', it was the same base the AETC/CC 2-Star commanded from, at the time Major General Alfred K. Flowers. He would ride around in his staff car with his 2-Star placard on the front and wait to see if airmen marching in details would or would not salute him.
One time, I saw a group of knuckleheads not salute his car and he slammed on his breaks, put the car in reverse (he was on a 2 lane road and some lady, probably his wife) was in the car. He put the car in park, got out of the car onto the side walk, ran in front of them (keep in mind, his car is still in the road).
The detail halted, and stared like he was a lion or something. He then said "We'll, someone call attention", they did, and then he said "Now what do you do?". They stalled again, and he said "Salute dammit!".
They did this shaky, crappy salute, and he saluted back and started yelling at them at the top of his lungs. He was in blues that day, so it was a Monday. Yelling. A 2-Star General, in Full Service Dress, yelling MTI style at these kids, some with no stripes. As funny as that was (I wanted to fall a part laughing, but if he saw me....), we were probably 15 feet away and completely frightened.
With was he said, he did not degrade them, at all. He did say that they were "turkeys" for not saluting. But he yelled about respect and what the salute means and custom, courtesies.These kids were shaking like crazy, but hell, he was a 2-Star, so it was one of the most frightening things any of us had seen to that point. He was only 15 feet away from my group, but we kept on moving. He yelled at them as if they were his children, and, as silly as it sounds, like he had a deep regard for them. Like he was proud they were willing to serve and greatful. But of course, with yelling.
Like I saw, NOW I look back, and its one of the funniest memories I had.
But here is why... I had already done some ready on my chain of command (dad taught me that) and I of General Flowers already. He was in Vietnam, prior enlisted, commissioned at 14 years as a MSgt. He was an air transportation in vietnam when enlisted, where he carried wounded and dead men out of the jungle at night. Then he was finance and had many commands. The man had been there, done that. When he retired he had a total of 46 years ADAF. I actually shook his hand (base cleaning detail before classes kicked off). He has is a loving, warm, and gentle man, but he had a hardness to him and you could tell he used it when needed. I knew HE meant well, and it showed.
Point to my long rambling post (sorry, I got a couple coors in me), There defintely is a way to handle things. Gen. Flowers, for the lack of better words, "scared the living daylights" out of us. He didnt say "I'm a general, blah blah blah", he was yelling at airmen because of the customs and courtesies, not that "I am a General and I can do this...". But he left and didnt say "Give me a 341" or "what squadrons are you with". That is what made that situation effective.
And this is why I also think the 0-4 in this situation was an ass. Reporting you? why is that necessary? Ask, if there is a serious no b/s response then he should lay off.
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Now, here is my take on it.
I work on a SOF base, Hurlburt Field, and with people dying in battle and suicides (i really hate those), we have casket drive by's and "commando pushups" for SOF/JSOC operators who have died. I had a several friends and familiy members give their lives for the sake of freedom. The most recent one was a CCT that died 2 years ago. SSgt Forrest Sibley, he was a good good friend of mine. A 4-time Bronze Star operator. Shot by taliban dressed up as gate guards. Apparently it was so close apparently he couldn't even fire it went on so fast. Point blank. Shame, because he was a damn good shot too. I am actually tearing up writing this. He was stationed at Pope, but spent alot of time here at Hurlburt.
I still visit his grave on Pensacola. I make the 34 mi. drive. Every year. I honor him. I touch his grave and I talk to him. I cry. He gave everything for me and you. I am an emotional guy by nature. I am pass the grieving, but now at the thanking. It keeps me humble, and thankful. When I do my job as an aircraft mechanic, I know there are guys that would, and ARE giving the same risk. This is the reality of the job, and this is one of the realities of the war we are fighting in the military we volunteered to join.
I have cried at the Star Spangled Banner, and at especially at Taps, almost every night (I live on base), I try not to tear up. I loved Forrest like a brother, and all he wanted to do is protect me and you. I love these customs and courtesies. I love saluting officers, especially 0-6 and maybe some 0-4 and 0-5 if I know them; because I trust they are making the best decisions they can. It is my job to trust them, and they know that. That is what the swore an oath to do.
I agree. It is important we honor these things. I salute the flag for not only the guys gone, but the guys that are still going, and what we stand for. It provides the honor due, but also the healing of know that those who Gave All will Not Be Forgotten.
BUT even though I have the upmost respect for the flag and customs/courtesies, if I saw a guy saying "dude, I have a disease" and the SSB is playing, and he falls, are you gonna just keep standing there at attention? Or you gonna pick him up, help him inside, because he has an illness? People are the important resource that other people have, and some people don't act that way.
Ok fellas, I dont want to hijack the thread, and I dont mean to ramble, but I am having a moment and if it is too much of one, please let me know and I will edit or delete it. Its gots stories (all related) both funny and said, tears, blood, and kungfoo....
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tony292, I completely agree. I had an experience that taught me the lesson of the "military game" all the back in training.
I will post this story about a 2-Star run-in I witnessed. Hopefully this will renew your faith in the system.
Once upon a time, I remember when I was at Keesler AFB for tech school July-Aug 09', it was the same base the AETC/CC 2-Star commanded from, at the time Major General Alfred K. Flowers. He would ride around in his staff car with his 2-Star placard on the front and wait to see if airmen marching in details would or would not salute him.
One time, I saw a group of knuckleheads not salute his car and he slammed on his breaks, put the car in reverse (he was on a 2 lane road and some lady, probably his wife) was in the car. He put the car in park, got out of the car onto the side walk, ran in front of them (keep in mind, his car is still in the road).
The detail halted, and stared like he was a lion or something. He then said "We'll, someone call attention", they did, and then he said "Now what do you do?". They stalled again, and he said "Salute dammit!".
They did this shaky, crappy salute, and he saluted back and started yelling at them at the top of his lungs. He was in blues that day, so it was a Monday. Yelling. A 2-Star General, in Full Service Dress, yelling MTI style at these kids, some with no stripes. As funny as that was (I wanted to fall a part laughing, but if he saw me....), we were probably 15 feet away and completely frightened.
With was he said, he did not degrade them, at all. He did say that they were "turkeys" for not saluting. But he yelled about respect and what the salute means and custom, courtesies.These kids were shaking like crazy, but hell, he was a 2-Star, so it was one of the most frightening things any of us had seen to that point. He was only 15 feet away from my group, but we kept on moving. He yelled at them as if they were his children, and, as silly as it sounds, like he had a deep regard for them. Like he was proud they were willing to serve and greatful. But of course, with yelling.
Like I saw, NOW I look back, and its one of the funniest memories I had.
But here is why... I had already done some ready on my chain of command (dad taught me that) and I of General Flowers already. He was in Vietnam, prior enlisted, commissioned at 14 years as a MSgt. He was an air transportation in vietnam when enlisted, where he carried wounded and dead men out of the jungle at night. Then he was finance and had many commands. The man had been there, done that. When he retired he had a total of 46 years ADAF. I actually shook his hand (base cleaning detail before classes kicked off). He has is a loving, warm, and gentle man, but he had a hardness to him and you could tell he used it when needed. I knew HE meant well, and it showed.
Point to my long rambling post (sorry, I got a couple coors in me), There defintely is a way to handle things. Gen. Flowers, for the lack of better words, "scared the living daylights" out of us. He didnt say "I'm a general, blah blah blah", he was yelling at airmen because of the customs and courtesies, not that "I am a General and I can do this...". But he left and didnt say "Give me a 341" or "what squadrons are you with". That is what made that situation effective.
And this is why I also think the 0-4 in this situation was an ass. Reporting you? why is that necessary? Ask, if there is a serious no b/s response then he should lay off.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Now, here is my take on it.
I work on a SOF base, Hurlburt Field, and with people dying in battle and suicides (i really hate those), we have casket drive by's and "commando pushups" for SOF/JSOC operators who have died. I had a several friends and familiy members give their lives for the sake of freedom. The most recent one was a CCT that died 2 years ago. SSgt Forrest Sibley, he was a good good friend of mine. A 4-time Bronze Star operator. Shot by taliban dressed up as gate guards. Apparently it was so close apparently he couldn't even fire it went on so fast. Point blank. Shame, because he was a damn good shot too. I am actually tearing up writing this. He was stationed at Pope, but spent alot of time here at Hurlburt.
I still visit his grave on Pensacola. I make the 34 mi. drive. Every year. I honor him. I touch his grave and I talk to him. I cry. He gave everything for me and you. I am an emotional guy by nature. I am pass the grieving, but now at the thanking. It keeps me humble, and thankful. When I do my job as an aircraft mechanic, I know there are guys that would, and ARE giving the same risk. This is the reality of the job, and this is one of the realities of the war we are fighting in the military we volunteered to join.
I have cried at the Star Spangled Banner, and at especially at Taps, almost every night (I live on base), I try not to tear up. I loved Forrest like a brother, and all he wanted to do is protect me and you. I love these customs and courtesies. I love saluting officers, especially 0-6 and maybe some 0-4 and 0-5 if I know them; because I trust they are making the best decisions they can. It is my job to trust them, and they know that. That is what the swore an oath to do.
I agree. It is important we honor these things. I salute the flag for not only the guys gone, but the guys that are still going, and what we stand for. It provides the honor due, but also the healing of know that those who Gave All will Not Be Forgotten.
BUT even though I have the upmost respect for the flag and customs/courtesies, if I saw a guy saying "dude, I have a disease" and the SSB is playing, and he falls, are you gonna just keep standing there at attention? Or you gonna pick him up, help him inside, because he has an illness? People are the important resource that other people have, and some people don't act that way.
I was an AD Paralegal, nothing will come of it. The UCMJ applies to AD folks. It would take a hell of a lot worse (rape, murder etc) to pull someone back to AD. I was also a Personnelist, it's VERY hard to do. The whole time I did it I only saw 1-2 cases which was for rape and I can't remember the other one. I wouldn't sweat it. The O4 shouldn't have pushed it. They automatically assume everyone is active duty. Once you said you were a civilian he stopped because he can't do anything.
Lol, they still do that at Keesler. Mostly training bases for tech school kids. And at Lackland. Everyone freaked out and were always on the lookout for those cars haha. They usually rip your ass and pull a 341.
They activated General Petraeus out of retirement to determine if he deserved demotion for his classified information fiasco. Then Secretary of Defense Carter declined to further punish the General.
So, I'd bet dollars to donuts you are good. That Major can eat a dick. He should have gone his merry way as soon as you told him why you did not stop. Or at least politely told you the flag is being lowered this time of day so be cognizant if you leave the gym on a future occasion at roughly the same time.
I do not understand why people were more of dick heads than they had to be while I was in and I do not now. I am a retired Officer and I hated when I saw my fellow Officers act in such a way.
So, I'd bet dollars to donuts you are good. That Major can eat a dick. He should have gone his merry way as soon as you told him why you did not stop. Or at least politely told you the flag is being lowered this time of day so be cognizant if you leave the gym on a future occasion at roughly the same time.
I do not understand why people were more of dick heads than they had to be while I was in and I do not now. I am a retired Officer and I hated when I saw my fellow Officers act in such a way.