Trying to understand how AMRO fits into the process

Hello,

My therapist informed me that I was being sent to AMRO because I've been in treatment for over 12 months. She made a really big deal about it and how my commander has to write an impact statement and her NARSUM and all and how she sees people get kicked out and retained with no rhyme or reason. I really tried to get more information from her, but she clearly doesn't understand a lot of the process and the AFI is confusing (referencing IRILO and AMRO independently and then as if they are the same thing). My commander on G-series is in name only (I've never met him) because I work in AFRL and it's heavily civilian with very little military involvement, so in order to engage my boss, I need to provide all the data and examples, etc.

I'm an O-4 with 18 years of active service, which I thought put me in sanctuary, but my therapist told me she's seen people kicked out at 19 years 9 months!

Can someone clarify the difference between IRILO (which seems to include a lot of the NARSUM and CC intent and more serious nature) vs AMRO (which seems to be a quick look at someone's situation?)? How does one feed into the other? Also, am I wrong about that sanctuary time frame? I'd like to make it to 20 and then retire.

 

[Provis]

Hello,

My therapist informed me that I was being sent to AMRO because I've been in treatment for over 12 months. She made a really big deal about it and how my commander has to write an impact statement and her NARSUM and all and how she sees people get kicked out and retained with no rhyme or reason. I really tried to get more information from her, but she clearly doesn't understand a lot of the process and the AFI is confusing (referencing IRILO and AMRO independently and then as if they are the same thing). My commander on G-series is in name only (I've never met him) because I work in AFRL and it's heavily civilian with very little military involvement, so in order to engage my boss, I need to provide all the data and examples, etc.

I'm an O-4 with 18 years of active service, which I thought put me in sanctuary, but my therapist told me she's seen people kicked out at 19 years 9 months!

Can someone clarify the difference between IRILO (which seems to include a lot of the NARSUM and CC intent and more serious nature) vs AMRO (which seems to be a quick look at someone's situation?)? How does one feed into the other? Also, am I wrong about that sanctuary time frame? I'd like to make it to 20 and then retire.

There is no sanctuary for being kicked out due to medical conditions. You definitely want to stay in and hit 20 years! You have a lot to lose if you don't. If you do get put into full IDES Code 37 you want to delay, delay delay and appeal everything in the process and delay C&P exams etc.

Consider hiring a private dedicated IDES attorney if you get put into it too. It is possible to be kicked out with a severance check and end up with no retirement or medical for your family.

 

[Provis]

Hello,

My therapist informed me that I was being sent to AMRO because I've been in treatment for over 12 months. She made a really big deal about it and how my commander has to write an impact statement and her NARSUM and all and how she sees people get kicked out and retained with no rhyme or reason. I really tried to get more information from her, but she clearly doesn't understand a lot of the process and the AFI is confusing (referencing IRILO and AMRO independently and then as if they are the same thing). My commander on G-series is in name only (I've never met him) because I work in AFRL and it's heavily civilian with very little military involvement, so in order to engage my boss, I need to provide all the data and examples, etc.

I'm an O-4 with 18 years of active service, which I thought put me in sanctuary, but my therapist told me she's seen people kicked out at 19 years 9 months!

Can someone clarify the difference between IRILO (which seems to include a lot of the NARSUM and CC intent and more serious nature) vs AMRO (which seems to be a quick look at someone's situation?)? How does one feed into the other? Also, am I wrong about that sanctuary time frame? I'd like to make it to 20 and then retire.

Also, talk to your commander and ask if they could state in the impact statement that you are able to do your job and have no restrictions on your duties and that they recommend you be found fit for duty! Be proactive. The commanders impact statement has a huge sway over how it goes. Your goal is that it becomes code 31 and not full blown IDES. That way you can continue on until you can retire. Make sure to drop your retirement packet as soon as you are allowed to. An approved retirement is presumed to be fit for duty.

 

[chaplaincharlie]

AMRO is a program name. IRILO is a process.

 

[ariagoose]

There is no sanctuary for being kicked out due to medical conditions. You definitely want to stay in and hit 20 years! You have a lot to lose if you don't. If you do get put into full IDES Code 37 you want to delay, delay delay and appeal everything in the process and delay C&P exams etc.

Consider hiring a private dedicated IDES attorney if you get put into it too. It is possible to be kicked out with a severance check and end up with no retirement or medical for your family.

Just found out today that next week they are going to code me 37... so I guess that kicks off the whole IDES thing? I don't have a PEBLO yet, but apparently that will be assigned next week at the same time... It's absolutely ridiculous that they push that they are "over the stigma" on mental health but med board you as soon as you have 12 CUMULATIVE months of therapy! Even with trauma recovery and working my job the entire time! If I can do my job for years, why all of a sudden is it now a problem?

 

[Provis]

Just found out today that next week they are going to code me 37... so I guess that kicks off the whole IDES thing? I don't have a PEBLO yet, but apparently that will be assigned next week at the same time... It's absolutely ridiculous that they push that they are "over the stigma" on mental health but med board you as soon as you have 12 CUMULATIVE months of therapy! Even with trauma recovery and working my job the entire time! If I can do my job for years, why all of a sudden is it now a problem?

Consider hiring a dedicated IDES attorney. Make sure to delay at every step. And looking to COAD. Not sure its an option for your branch but there is a last ditch attempt after being found unfit for Soldiers who have 15+ years in to continue on active duty until 20 even if they are unfit.

 

[amsgll11]

Consider hiring a dedicated IDES attorney. Make sure to delay at every step. And looking to COAD. Not sure its an option for your branch but there is a last ditch attempt after being found unfit for Soldiers who have 15+ years in to continue on active duty until 20 even if they are unfit.

What does COAD stand for? that is the situation I am in, I have a feeling if I am this far in the process (last C&P exam this week for mental health), that I will be found unfit even if I disagree with that. I have 15 years active service now.

 

[amsgll11]

Also, if I am already in the IDES process, am I screwed? When can I appeal things?

 

[Provis]

What does COAD stand for? that is the situation I am in, I have a feeling if I am this far in the process (last C&P exam this week for mental health), that I will be found unfit even if I disagree with that. I have 15 years active service now.

COAD in the Army is Continue On Active Duty. Means they keep you in after you have been found unfit.

 

[Provis]

Also, if I am already in the IDES process, am I screwed? When can I appeal things?

Where are you in the process? The first time you can appeal is at the NARSUM stage. When you get your NARSUM you can concur, do a written rebuttal and or request an Independent Medical Review (IMR).

I strongly recommend looking into hiring a private IDES attorney. Most people just float through the process instead of having an end goal and working with their legal representative to try to get the best result. There is a lot of nuance and similar cases can have wildly different outcomes based on what the PEB determines.

 

[Provis]

I will send you references for legal if you want to call and see if they can help. I may have already done so but if not I am sending them now.

 

[amsgll11]

Where are you in the process? The first time you can appeal is at the NARSUM stage. When you get your NARSUM you can concur, do a written rebuttal and or request an Independent Medical Review (IMR).

I strongly recommend looking into hiring a private IDES attorney. Most people just float through the process instead of having an end goal and working with their legal representative to try to get the best result. There is a lot of nuance and similar cases can have wildly different outcomes based on what the PEB determines.

I cannot believe I didnt know I could do a written rebuttal of the NARSUM or request an IMR! I would have done the IMR and/or rebuttal definitely. I looked into one of those private attornies, I just truly couldnt afford it. Right now I have one more C&P exam this week. Is it too late to do any rebuttal of the NARSUM?

 

[Provis]

I cannot believe I didnt know I could do a written rebuttal of the NARSUM or request an IMR! I would have done the IMR and/or rebuttal definitely. I looked into one of those private attornies, I just truly couldnt afford it. Right now I have one more C&P exam this week. Is it too late to do any rebuttal of the NARSUM?

If you concurred you have no recourse. What branch are you in? Some branches like AF do it very weird such as a mini IDES before you get put in full IDES. If you are AF for example there is a rebuttal you can do on the commander's impact statement. Then NARSUM created and if they can't find a way to keep you in with a limited duty assignment they move you from Code 31 to Code 37 which is full IDES.

In some ways AF is harder which looking into your profile it looks like that is where you are at. If you are in full IDES code 37 you should be able to do Rebuttal, IMR or concur for NARSUM. Next is iPEB results. From those results you can request Formal PEB via appeal, written rebuttal or Concur. A separate option that is chosen in the same state is requesting a VARR if you are arguing that your rating is too low for a condition that is found unfitting by the PEB.

The process is super complicated and sucks. A lot of AF people get a raw deal because the NARSUM doc doesn't have all the information to write it up and if you are code 31 you don't get to see anything or appeal anything until you are code 37. So many end up not even staying in IDES as they are moved from code 31 to a limited duty station and never get to full iDES even though they should have been.

 

[Provis]

I cannot believe I didnt know I could do a written rebuttal of the NARSUM or request an IMR! I would have done the IMR and/or rebuttal definitely. I looked into one of those private attornies, I just truly couldnt afford it. Right now I have one more C&P exam this week. Is it too late to do any rebuttal of the NARSUM?

Also, this is just my personal opinion you can't not afford to get a private counsel regardless of the cost or if you have to borrow. That's how I feel about it especially if you are in for 15 or more years. My wife was at 17 years active duty as an AGR and because she was so close to earning a full retirement and concurrent receipt of VA disability pay we couldn't risk the outcome up to chance.

 

[amsgll11]

If you concurred you have no recourse. What branch are you in? Some branches like AF do it very weird such as a mini IDES before you get put in full IDES. If you are AF for example there is a rebuttal you can do on the commander's impact statement. Then NARSUM created and if they can't find a way to keep you in with a limited duty assignment they move you from Code 31 to Code 37 which is full IDES.

In some ways AF is harder which looking into your profile it looks like that is where you are at. If you are in full IDES code 37 you should be able to do Rebuttal, IMR or concur for NARSUM. Next is iPEB results. From those results you can request Formal PEB via appeal, written rebuttal or Concur. A separate option that is chosen in the same state is requesting a VARR if you are arguing that your rating is too low for a condition that is found unfitting by the PEB.

The process is super complicated and sucks. A lot of AF people get a raw deal because the NARSUM doc doesn't have all the information to write it up and if you are code 31 you don't get to see anything or appeal anything until you are code 37. So many end up not even staying in IDES as they are moved from code 31 to a limited duty station and never get to full iDES even though they should have been.

I am AF. I have a code 37 on my profile. Can I still do a rebuttal, IMR, etc. now? The Commander impact statement was given to my Peblo at the beginning of this process, before any C&P exams. I am confused though...is that when I should have done the rebuttal? I feel like I didnt have a choice and had to concur, but apparently not!

 

[amsgll11]

If you concurred you have no recourse. What branch are you in? Some branches like AF do it very weird such as a mini IDES before you get put in full IDES. If you are AF for example there is a rebuttal you can do on the commander's impact statement. Then NARSUM created and if they can't find a way to keep you in with a limited duty assignment they move you from Code 31 to Code 37 which is full IDES.

In some ways AF is harder which looking into your profile it looks like that is where you are at. If you are in full IDES code 37 you should be able to do Rebuttal, IMR or concur for NARSUM. Next is iPEB results. From those results you can request Formal PEB via appeal, written rebuttal or Concur. A separate option that is chosen in the same state is requesting a VARR if you are arguing that your rating is too low for a condition that is found unfitting by the PEB.

The process is super complicated and sucks. A lot of AF people get a raw deal because the NARSUM doc doesn't have all the information to write it up and if you are code 31 you don't get to see anything or appeal anything until you are code 37. So many end up not even staying in IDES as they are moved from code 31 to a limited duty station and never get to full iDES even though they should have been.

This is on my profile:

AAC 37/DAV 42--No deployment, member is undergoing an MEB. Est end date: 01/02/2025

 

[Provis]

This is on my profile:

AAC 37/DAV 42--No deployment, member is undergoing an MEB. Est end date: 01/02/2025

k you are full IDES code 37. Did you go over the NARSUM with the PEBLO? Did you concur, rebuttal or IMR? If you did concur did the PEBLO explain the other options? The process sucks because they funnel you through like cattle or sheep. Those who are active and fight for any issues for things you deserve have the best outcome.

 

[amsgll11]

No, I didn't do any of those things! I was never told I could, I'm so frustrated right now. Is this something I can still do? Or is it too late? I think I did concur with the commander impact statement because I didn't think I had any other option?!

 

[Provis]

No, I didn't do any of those things! I was never told I could, I'm so frustrated right now. Is this something I can still do? Or is it too late? I think I did concur with the commander impact statement because I didn't think I had any other option?!

Sorry but you are the typical Soldier that is herded through the process. Talk to your assigned IDES legal person. There is nothing wrong with concurring if the outcome is in line with your expectations. However, if there is issues you want to challenge it at each phase so that you can have a better chance of the FPEB ruling in your favor.

So for example, if your commander's impact statement said everything is fine but you disagree. You could have non concurred on the commander's impact statement. Another example, The NARSUM that states whether each condition is fit or unfit only state that your referred condition is unfit but you believe that another condition should have been unfit too. You would have not concurred and written a rebuttal that stated why that other condition should be found to be medically unfit or requested an independent medical review depending on the situation.

Real life example, was that my wife was referred 2 conditions and she believed that she should have 3 conditions unfit. When the NARSUM came out they added the 3rd unfit condition without her challenging it because of the combination of her medical records and that her commander mentioned that condition as causing her issues at work. However, even with having all 3 conditions she wanted in the NARSUM to state unfit she still appealed. She believed that one of those conditions should be combat related. So she chose to not concur and her attorney wrote up a rebuttal that was submitted. The docs didn't change anything. However, when she appealed to the FPEB they could see her appeal document and her written rebuttal on the NARSUM and all the other times she insisted that the condition should be combat related. The FPEB ultimately ruled in her favor.

Why was it so important to get a combat related designation for one of her conditions? If one or more unfit conditions are combat related then her entire chapter 61 pension would be exempt from taxes for life. Since she was an Officer her chapter 61 pension was greater than her VA compensation. So the chapter 61 pension that was paid to her after deducting the VA compensation due to the offset is tax free for life!

You may want to reach out to those references and just talk to them and see if they can help and what their fees are. Not everyone can afford one and not everyone needs one (Even though I am a proponent that everyone should hire one only because its not worth the risk of getting a lesser result due to not having the knowledge or expertise of the IDES process). No attorney charges you for talking to them to get their opinion. Find out what they say and their costs. At the very least you may learn something that can help you and if they can help you can at least try to hire them by exploring financing options.

 

[amsgll11]

Sorry but you are the typical Soldier that is herded through the process. Talk to your assigned IDES legal person. There is nothing wrong with concurring if the outcome is in line with your expectations. However, if there is issues you want to challenge it at each phase so that you can have a better chance of the FPEB ruling in your favor.

So for example, if your commander's impact statement said everything is fine but you disagree. You could have non concurred on the commander's impact statement. Another example, The NARSUM that states whether each condition is fit or unfit only state that your referred condition is unfit but you believe that another condition should have been unfit too. You would have not concurred and written a rebuttal that stated why that other condition should be found to be medically unfit or requested an independent medical review depending on the situation.

Real life example, was that my wife was referred 2 conditions and she believed that she should have 3 conditions unfit. When the NARSUM came out they added the 3rd unfit condition without her challenging it because of the combination of her medical records and that her commander mentioned that condition as causing her issues at work. However, even with having all 3 conditions she wanted in the NARSUM to state unfit she still appealed. She believed that one of those conditions should be combat related. So she chose to not concur and her attorney wrote up a rebuttal that was submitted. The docs didn't change anything. However, when she appealed to the FPEB they could see her appeal document and her written rebuttal on the NARSUM and all the other times she insisted that the condition should be combat related. The FPEB ultimately ruled in her favor.

Why was it so important to get a combat related designation for one of her conditions? If one or more unfit conditions are combat related then her entire chapter 61 pension would be exempt from taxes for life. Since she was an Officer her chapter 61 pension was greater than her VA compensation. So the chapter 61 pension that was paid to her after deducting the VA compensation due to the offset is tax free for life!

You may want to reach out to those references and just talk to them and see if they can help and what their fees are. Not everyone can afford one and not everyone needs one (Even though I am a proponent that everyone should hire one only because its not worth the risk of getting a lesser result due to not having the knowledge or expertise of the IDES process). No attorney charges you for talking to them to get their opinion. Find out what they say and their costs. At the very least you may learn something that can help you and if they can help you can at least try to hire them by exploring financing options.

Thank you. Yeah so I want to fight to be found fit. I never knew about non concurring on the CIS so that really bums me out. Also, the NARSUM I didnt see before it was submitted.