LODs / MEB / PEB lost in the sauce

[nomad_romad]

I am prior Army, and I'm currently Air National Guard. I tore my shoulder back in 2020. In the course of getting my shoulder diagnosed my PCM found several other issues like hypertension, sleep apnea, premature ventricular depolarization, migraine with aura, and some other conditions. I was on orders when all this was discovered. I reported everything to my Medical Squadron. They only initiated an LOD for my shoulder. I am currently fighting to get LODs for the other conditions. I have 20 years in, and I'm due to retire in April. It took involvement from the IG, my congressman, and even the CMSAFs office to get my medical to abide by the AFI.

My concern is that they refused to initiate LODs for the other conditions that were incurred or aggravated while on a duty status. My fear is that they are just trying to push me out without addressing my grievances. The migraines I suffer from are disqualifying for my career field. I cannot conduct airborne duties or control CAS due to them. To add to all that my shoulder has been reinjured by another military member at a physical therapy clinic. He was day drinking while working on my surgically repaired shoulder. I believe that I should be entered into the DES process. Reading the AFIs backs my assertation. I cannot get my medical or command to do anything. I am under a time crunch with my separation date looming. Looking for advice on how to proceed. At this point I feel that I may need to get IG and my congressman involved again. Thanks for your help.

 

[Provis]

I am prior Army, and I'm currently Air National Guard. I tore my shoulder back in 2020. In the course of getting my shoulder diagnosed my PCM found several other issues like hypertension, sleep apnea, premature ventricular depolarization, migraine with aura, and some other conditions. I was on orders when all this was discovered. I reported everything to my Medical Squadron. They only initiated an LOD for my shoulder. I am currently fighting to get LODs for the other conditions. I have 20 years in, and I'm due to retire in April. It took involvement from the IG, my congressman, and even the CMSAFs office to get my medical to abide by the AFI.

My concern is that they refused to initiate LODs for the other conditions that were incurred or aggravated while on a duty status. My fear is that they are just trying to push me out without addressing my grievances. The migraines I suffer from are disqualifying for my career field. I cannot conduct airborne duties or control CAS due to them. To add to all that my shoulder has been reinjured by another military member at a physical therapy clinic. He was day drinking while working on my surgically repaired shoulder. I believe that I should be entered into the DES process. Reading the AFIs backs my assertation. I cannot get my medical or command to do anything. I am under a time crunch with my separation date looming. Looking for advice on how to proceed. At this point I feel that I may need to get IG and my congressman involved again. Thanks for your help.

It's going to be a tough battle. If there isn't a profile for a condition they won't find it unfitting for your job even if your don't meet the medical qualification's for the AF. Also, its very hard to get the 30% needed with a shoulder issue to get an immediate pension instead of waiting for retirement age. Also, based on VA ratings you likely would not get a pension as the VA% would offset a medical pension.

It may be best to get rated properly by the VA and collect benefits through them. Then apply for retirement at age 60 or below if you have qualifying deployments that can reduce your retirement age. With a 20 year letter you will qualify for CRDP once you reach retirement age for the Air National Guard. That means you get your VA money and your pension you earned.

 

[Jason Perry]

My concern is that they refused to initiate LODs for the other conditions that were incurred or aggravated while on a duty status. My fear is that they are just trying to push me out without addressing my grievances. The migraines I suffer from are disqualifying for my career field. I cannot conduct airborne duties or control CAS due to them. To add to all that my shoulder has been reinjured by another military member at a physical therapy clinic. He was day drinking while working on my surgically repaired shoulder. I believe that I should be entered into the DES process. Reading the AFIs backs my assertation. I cannot get my medical or command to do anything. I am under a time crunch with my separation date looming. Looking for advice on how to proceed. At this point I feel that I may need to get IG and my congressman involved again. Thanks for your help.

I wish I had more direct help for you on your immediate issues.

That said, I am very interested in this issue of the military branches refusing to do LOD's on members and referring cases as Non-Duty Related (or not referring cases at all based on "someone" (not the right authority) thinking that the case does not merit processing because there is no "LOD" proving that the condition is duty-related.

I am looking into filing a class-action lawsuit on this issue of failing to conduct LOD investigations and improper processing of cases based on this failure. It will likely be a few months before I could potentially pursue this but that is mainly because of my waiting for results in a client's case. Please do keep in touch if you are interested in the progress and updates about his issue.

 

[nomad_romad]

I wish I had more direct help for you on your immediate issues.

That said, I am very interested in this issue of the military branches refusing to do LOD's on members and referring cases as Non-Duty Related (or not referring cases at all based on "someone" (not the right authority) thinking that the case does not merit processing because there is no "LOD" proving that the condition is duty-related.

I am looking into filing a class-action lawsuit on this issue of failing to conduct LOD investigations and improper processing of cases based on this failure. It will likely be a few months before I could potentially pursue this but that is mainly because of my waiting for results in a client's case. Please do keep in touch if you are interested in the progress and updates about his issue.

Jason,

Thanks for reaching out. You hit the nail on the head. My shoulder LOD was initially denied by the medical admin clerk. When I say denied I mean to say that he would not even initiate the LOD bc he decided it was not in the line of duty. The AFI is clear. If you are on any duty status and incur or aggravate an injury, illness, or disease it is presumed to be in the line of duty. Once reported, a LOD must be initiated. I was outright told by a Lt Col at my Medical Squadron that the other conditions that I incurred or aggravated while on a duty status were not a concern of the Medical Squadron. I was told that I could seek care from the VA for those conditions. This issue is definitely not isolated. I know of several other wingman on my base alone that are fighting the medical squadron.

I had a virtual meeting with my Senator's Office today, and I requested that they intervene on my behalf. I also sent an email to the medical squadron outlining the AFI and then posing direct questions as to why they did not follow the AFI in which compliance is mandatory. I have also sent an email to my Wing Commander requesting to speak with her about the medical squadron's willful disregard to the AFI as she is the approving authority for the Wing for LODs. I have retained representation for malpractice against the physical therapy clinic. I am definitely interested to learn of you progress in LOD investigations, denials, and refusals. Keep up the good fight.

 

[Jason Perry]

Not sure if you are tracking this update to the regulation regarding LODs, but either way, here you go:

https://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a1/publication/dafi36-2910/dafi36-2910.pdf

 

[Jason Perry]

Quick note- I am sure there are other instances in AFIs where this happened, but the above cite to AFI 36-2910 is the first regulation I have seen in the disability arena that specifically references the US Space Force and Guardians.

 

[Jason Perry]

And, while I am HOT on this topic, let me hit on the most immediate error in the AFI:

"1.1. The Line of Duty (LOD) Determination and its Objective. An illness, injury, disease or death sustained by a member while in a qualified duty status is presumed in the line of duty (ILOD). The burden of proof is with the Department of the Air Force to overcome the presumption. There are different standards of proof for the Department of the Air Force to overcome presumption based on order duration (see paragraph 1.9 and Table 1.1). Members must provide timely medical documentation that the illness, injury, disease or death that occurred while in that duty status."

Why does the member have to provide that documentation? The AF is required to maintain medical records on Airmen. I think this is BS- the only case where a member must provide this is when a LOD investigation has shown that this is in doubt. The second bolded part is essentially stating that there is no presumption. Complete BS.

 

[Guardguy11]

I wish I had more direct help for you on your immediate issues.

That said, I am very interested in this issue of the military branches refusing to do LOD's on members and referring cases as Non-Duty Related (or not referring cases at all based on "someone" (not the right authority) thinking that the case does not merit processing because there is no "LOD" proving that the condition is duty-related.

I am looking into filing a class-action lawsuit on this issue of failing to conduct LOD investigations and improper processing of cases based on this failure. It will likely be a few months before I could potentially pursue this but that is mainly because of my waiting for results in a client's case. Please do keep in touch if you are interested in the progress and updates about his issue.

@Jason Perry, I am waiting on 5 years worth of FOIA data regarding NGB LODs. They said it would take 2 years to get me the data, so I still have a year and some change to go... but once I have that data, I am fairly certain it would aid your class action lawsuit.

Here is the post I have on the topic if you are curious as to what questions I asked in the FOIA - NGB LOD FOIA request

I will help you in this endeavor in anyway I can. So many people have suffered due to NGB and the LOD process.

 

[trini]

I wish I had more direct help for you on your immediate issues.

That said, I am very interested in this issue of the military branches refusing to do LOD's on members and referring cases as Non-Duty Related (or not referring cases at all based on "someone" (not the right authority) thinking that the case does not merit processing because there is no "LOD" proving that the condition is duty-related.

I am looking into filing a class-action lawsuit on this issue of failing to conduct LOD investigations and improper processing of cases based on this failure. It will likely be a few months before I could potentially pursue this but that is mainly because of my waiting for results in a client's case. Please do keep in touch if you are interested in the progress and updates about his issue.

Count me in when you do file this lawsuit...I'm having the same issue and it's been ongoing for 6 years.

 

[Guardguy11]

@Jason Perry, have you ever dealt with a FOIA before? They sent me this last month:

----------------------------------------------------
The FOIA provides for the collection of fees based on the costs of processing a FOIA request and your fee category. Based on the information in your request, we have placed you in the “all other” fee category which allows you to receive the first 2 hours of search time and first 100 pages of reprographics at no cost. Without a fee agreement in place, we will cease searching for records after the first 2 hours of search time have been exhausted, and the additional $25.00 you agreed to pay and issue a final response at that time.

If you wish to create a fee agreement with our office to allow for greater search time, please write to our office indicating the amount of fees you are willing to pay for processing, or indicate that you are willing to pay all processing costs for the record search.
-----------------------------------------------------

Here is my response:

I am willing to pay upto $500 in processing costs associated with this search. If it is required to go over $500, I would require an estimated fee how much much more to complete the task. I am not against paying more but leaving a blank check just saying I'll pay any and all costs without any idea of how much this stuff costs is not prudent. Thanks for getting back with me.

BREAK

The whole thing seems really screwy. They didn't give me any idea how much this could even potentially cost. I don't want to say I'll cover all the costs and then get a $10k bill in the mail. It takes months just to hear responses from them.

 

[Guardguy11]

Freedom of Information Act doesn't mean freedom to get that information for free apparently. Just got a response back from NGB saying after the first 2 hours, they charge on average $44 an hour for professional "searching". My original request was 5 years of data (2016-2020). I just responded to that e-mail asking if they can do just 2020 and then tell me how many hours that took. I can then decide if I am willing to pay for the rest.

I had no idea when I first did this that we had to pay this much. The conspiracy theorist in me thinks they will assign it to the highest paid person in the building just to jack up the costs so I won't be able to get the data without significant financial investment.

 

[Guardguy11]

Note to self, IAW 29 CFR 1208.6, you can apply for a fee waiver when you initially submit a FOIA request. Must meet the requirements listed in para (k)(2) i - iii. I just created a basic MFR and submitted it to NGB. Standing by to see if they will approve my waiver after the fact. Paragraph k(4) says you can request fee waiver after submission as long as the request is pending. We will see if it works.

Standing by.....

 

[nomad_romad]

And, while I am HOT on this topic, let me hit on the most immediate error in the AFI: "1.1. The Line of Duty (LOD) Determination and its Objective. An illness, injury, disease or death sustained by a member while in a qualified duty status is presumed in the line of duty (ILOD). The burden of proof is with the Department of the Air Force to overcome the presumption. There are different standards of proof for the Department of the Air Force to overcome presumption based on order duration (see paragraph 1.9 and Table 1.1). Members must provide timely medical documentation that the illness, injury, disease or death that occurred while in that duty status." Why does the member have to provide that documentation? The AF is required to maintain medical records on Airmen. I think this is BS- the only case where a member must provide this is when a LOD investigation has shown that this is in doubt. The second bolded part is essentially stating that there is no presumption. Complete BS.

 

[nomad_romad]

Just a quick update. After a lot of back and forth with my Wing they are finally agreeing to send up all my LOD conditions. They are still trying to route them through a formal LOD which doesn't make sense since they would have to have evidence of negligence, misconduct, or the conditions were EPTS. My Senator has also started an inquiry. This whole process has been beyond frustrating. I'll have to wait on the LOD determinations, but I'm prepared for another fight if they decide to classify them as NILOD. My Wing has gone above and beyond to make this as painful and difficult for me. My care has been delayed, and I've lost out on pay and benefits.

 

[ENDISHERE]

I am prior Army, and I'm currently Air National Guard. I tore my shoulder back in 2020. In the course of getting my shoulder diagnosed my PCM found several other issues like hypertension, sleep apnea, premature ventricular depolarization, migraine with aura, and some other conditions. I was on orders when all this was discovered. I reported everything to my Medical Squadron. They only initiated an LOD for my shoulder. I am currently fighting to get LODs for the other conditions. I have 20 years in, and I'm due to retire in April. It took involvement from the IG, my congressman, and even the CMSAFs office to get my medical to abide by the AFI.

My concern is that they refused to initiate LODs for the other conditions that were incurred or aggravated while on a duty status. My fear is that they are just trying to push me out without addressing my grievances. The migraines I suffer from are disqualifying for my career field. I cannot conduct airborne duties or control CAS due to them. To add to all that my shoulder has been reinjured by another military member at a physical therapy clinic. He was day drinking while working on my surgically repaired shoulder. I believe that I should be entered into the DES process. Reading the AFIs backs my assertation. I cannot get my medical or command to do anything. I am under a time crunch with my separation date looming. Looking for advice on how to proceed. At this point I feel that I may need to get IG and my congressman involved again. Thanks for your help.

I am prior Army, and I'm currently Air National Guard. I tore my shoulder back in 2020. In the course of getting my shoulder diagnosed my PCM found several other issues like hypertension, sleep apnea, premature ventricular depolarization, migraine with aura, and some other conditions. I was on orders when all this was discovered. I reported everything to my Medical Squadron. They only initiated an LOD for my shoulder. I am currently fighting to get LODs for the other conditions. I have 20 years in, and I'm due to retire in April. It took involvement from the IG, my congressman, and even the CMSAFs office to get my medical to abide by the AFI.

My concern is that they refused to initiate LODs for the other conditions that were incurred or aggravated while on a duty status. My fear is that they are just trying to push me out without addressing my grievances. The migraines I suffer from are disqualifying for my career field. I cannot conduct airborne duties or control CAS due to them. To add to all that my shoulder has been reinjured by another military member at a physical therapy clinic. He was day drinking while working on my surgically repaired shoulder. I believe that I should be entered into the DES process. Reading the AFIs backs my assertation. I cannot get my medical or command to do anything. I am under a time crunch with my separation date looming. Looking for advice on how to proceed. At this point I feel that I may need to get IG and my congressman involved again. Thanks for your help.

I am an Air Force reservist who has been injured several times while in status. I have never once had an LOD or even knew there was such a thing until reading this foum. Who is responsible for initiating an LOD? When I asked about it I was told there had been too much time and they would do nothing. Here I am going through the MED board and I know this going to hurt me.

 

[Provis]

I am an Air Force reservist who has been injured several times while in status. I have never once had an LOD or even knew there was such a thing until reading this foum. Who is responsible for initiating an LOD? When I asked about it I was told there had been too much time and they would do nothing. Here I am going through the MED board and I know this going to hurt me.

The unit is supposed to process a LOD when they are informed of an injury while on orders. The NG and USAR are notorious for not doing this and not following the law. I know it would be expensive but I would consider hiring a private attorney to help you fight to get LOD's because then those conditions could be considered for MEB.

 

[ENDISHERE]

The unit is supposed to process a LOD when they are informed of an injury while on orders. The NG and USAR are notorious for not doing this and not following the law. I know it would be expensive but I would consider hiring a private attorney to help you fight to get LOD's because then those conditions could be considered for MEB.

I may have to look into that. This is all so frustrating.

 

[jr0718]

Just a quick update. After a lot of back and forth with my Wing they are finally agreeing to send up all my LOD conditions. They are still trying to route them through a formal LOD which doesn't make sense since they would have to have evidence of negligence, misconduct, or the conditions were EPTS. My Senator has also started an inquiry. This whole process has been beyond frustrating. I'll have to wait on the LOD determinations, but I'm prepared for another fight if they decide to classify them as NILOD. My Wing has gone above and beyond to make this as painful and difficult for me. My care has been delayed, and I've lost out on pay and benefits.

I am pretty sure we are at the same base and had this discussion before. To update my issues with this same clinic, I have one LOD that wasn't initially filed in relation to an injury and another the medical clerk attempted to edit at her discretion based on her misunderstanding medical note from a physician. Fortunately, I caught it and was able to call the leadership's attention to it. The LOD that wasn't initially filed has since been filed after aggravating the initial back injury along with the hip injury. They, along with NAS medical team, told me to schedule a surgery to have the issue fixed only to get a call the day before my surgery telling me I needed to cancel because the LOD wasn't submitted properly and was delayed at NGB.

I have since found out (approx. 2 weeks ago) that the LODs have been sitting at NGB for 7 days on the hip and 47 days on the back. They have offered no explanations as to why things are happening the way they are or what the solution is. Also, the medical clerk in charge of LODs has since resigned and they have placed the workload now on a civilian that I am told is about to quit as well. The medical squadron is a disaster. I am going on two years with these injuries and have yet to have either of them fully attended to. And because of that, I am being pushed to the medical board evaluation system which I am unlikely to return to service.

How can a medical squadron designed to help its Airmen fail so miserably?

 

[nomad_romad]

I am pretty sure we are at the same base and had this discussion before. To update my issues with this same clinic, I have one LOD that wasn't initially filed in relation to an injury and another the medical clerk attempted to edit at her discretion based on her misunderstanding medical note from a physician. Fortunately, I caught it and was able to call the leadership's attention to it. The LOD that wasn't initially filed has since been filed after aggravating the initial back injury along with the hip injury. They, along with NAS medical team, told me to schedule a surgery to have the issue fixed only to get a call the day before my surgery telling me I needed to cancel because the LOD wasn't submitted properly and was delayed at NGB.

I have since found out (approx. 2 weeks ago) that the LODs have been sitting at NGB for 7 days on the hip and 47 days on the back. They have offered no explanations as to why things are happening the way they are or what the solution is. Also, the medical clerk in charge of LODs has since resigned and they have placed the workload now on a civilian that I am told is about to quit as well. The medical squadron is a disaster. I am going on two years with these injuries and have yet to have either of them fully attended to. And because of that, I am being pushed to the medical board evaluation system which I am unlikely to return to service.

How can a medical squadron designed to help its Airmen fail so miserably?

Yep that's me. I heard that the MSgt resigned. I was unaware that DA may also resign. They need to bring in outside help, or outsource the LOD process to another base. At the end of the day all they had to do was fill out 1 form. Instead they decided to to hold their own in house determination boards as to whether they believed if you should have an LOD or not.

 

[Kendy26]

I wish I had more direct help for you on your immediate issues.

That said, I am very interested in this issue of the military branches refusing to do LOD's on members and referring cases as Non-Duty Related (or not referring cases at all based on "someone" (not the right authority) thinking that the case does not merit processing because there is no "LOD" proving that the condition is duty-related.

I am looking into filing a class-action lawsuit on this issue of failing to conduct LOD investigations and improper processing of cases based on this failure. It will likely be a few months before I could potentially pursue this but that is mainly because of my waiting for results in a client's case. Please do keep in touch if you are interested in the progress and updates about his issue.

I have the same issue with my LOD my unit submitted it but i needed some corrections which they have not done i had to get hand surgery because of this injury i have a Temp profile for this injury currently starting physical therapy.